Hezbollah jumps at an opportunity to make Lebanon more like Iran.
Should they be scapegoated?
For the sake of argument — and I’m in no position to speculate on the outcome of the investigation — let’s assume that the probe into Sunday’s events reveals that in the heat of the confrontation, a group of Lebanese soldiers and officers freaked out at the mob’s attempts to usurp their weapons by force and intimidate them by hurling stones and shouting insults at them. Let’s say that those soldiers and officers responded disproportionately and shot at the mobs killing a few of them.
Of course, if that is the case, any reasonable person would agree that the guilty men in uniform should be severely punished, disgraced and maybe even jailed for many years. On a larger scale, an overhaul of the army should equip it with rubber bullets and other non-fatal riot control equipment. But should the soldiers be executed as one Hezbollah official was demanding?
Shouldn’t we take into consideration self defense and the extraordinary war-like situation where a soldier’s ability for measured response is severely compromised? Do we really want to become an execution nation like Iran, where teenage girls are publicly executed for “crimes against chastity” ?
Today, Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei’s representative to the Supreme National Security Council, Ali Larijani, said that “Hezbollah’s victory in the July War is the fruit of the Iranian Revolution”. Let’s just hope no other fruit of that sort trickles down to our justice system.
Hello, my name is Mustapha and I've been blogging about Lebanese society, business and politics since February 2005.
I don’t believe in execution as correct punishment for any crime. Although Hezbullah might support execution because of its med evil beliefs but this is not the case here.
Hezbullah wants to execute these soldiers so that in the up coming riots not even one soldier would even dare to shoot one shot whatever the rioters are trying to take over a building. This whole thing is to try to weaken the army and scare it, make it paralyzed, demoralized, weaken its act against the upcoming riots. I believe when these soldiers will be executed many in the army will lose faith in their leaders and their institution.
The execution of these soldiers is just another step towards the pre-planned chaos by Hezbullah.
You’re adding fuel to the fire and the confusion.
-If soldiers cannot fire at people trying to take their weapons, you will have NO army in a matter of days.
-Hezbo et al should STFU. We have laws, just apply them.
-The Saniora gvmnt and top army command are RESPONSIBLE. There is no place for PROTESTS in the current environment.
-According to L’Orient the 3 trouble instigators belonging to pro-Syrian parties have been identified and are sought for arrest. These should be EXECUTED if found guilty, though I have my doubts they’ll even be arrested.
This isn’t innocent at all. By making sure that someone from the army gets executed, hezballah is hoping that the next time, these young man in the army think twice about doing their job against Hezballah thugs.
I hope the state will not surrender, and will show their army man, that Lebanon stands by them, when militias try to sideline them.
The trouble instigators should be punished. Whoever fired at the Lebanese army should be punished.
The Lebanese army should apply zero tolerance in these situations. Troubles are not allowed. Destroying properties is not allowed. Firing at the Lebanese army is not allowed and is punishable.
The problem of HizbIran with that is competition. HizbIran does not want any other army other than his army in Lebanon. It is common sense (Iranian common sense!). He just wants the power (period).
If the Lebanese army starts punishing its officers/soldiers for using force in these situations, then there will be no more Lebanese army. Which is the perfect situation for HizbIran.
I said and I will repeat the army should use zero tolerance in these situations against criminals. The army should be untouchable.
Ironically, HizbIran wants an investigation with a dead line (Feb 1). And based on that, they will see if they will get any new orders from Iran with respect to presidency in Lebanon.
I say the Lebanese gov’t was too lean with respect to HizbIran. The army shall fires back at every single sniper from AL Dahieh. They should never accept to hide from those traitors. If they (HizbIran) want war, give them one.
Whose laws are we applying? firstly Hassan and iztez should be executed for sending young men to burn tires and fire at the police. I am for an investigation; however to conict soldiers of murder whereas all evidence is pointing to a self defence????…
HA and their asshole bunch can go to hell where they can join in with their bretheren!
Repremands are a part of inappropriate use of force. Not execution just because the black turbines said so!!!
I totally agree with JoseWales. If the army can not shoot at those who try to take their weapons away.. then what are they good for? (if this is what happened)
It’s funny, I was reading my book this morning, and in it was an interesting passage dealing with responsibility, truth and punishment.
The author (Mai Ghoussoub) quotes Neal Ascherson (The Independent-30Jan.1994):
“When punishment becomes revenge, we’re on the road to barbarism”.
Hizballa is the living prove of terrorism and chaos in Lebanon. We are facing the sad fact: either we give up on Lebanon and leave it so it become an Islamic Republic on the Iranian style (preserving some rights for minorities like Armenians rights in Iran). Or we fight for our freedom and the high price to fight is our blood!
Why send fear into Lebanese?
Most Lebanese are not Iran’s biggest fan!
Who said Iran wants to make Lebanon similar to it?
Can it even do it?
Can you undo eras of culture refinement. We ‘barely’ feel Arabs! (some of us at least)
Executed? Punished? Stripped of their ranks? HELL, I think these soldiers should be given medals for shooting at terrorist scumbags.
Mustapha,
You’re wasting your time and barking up the wrong tree. I’ll echo Josey Wales’ sentiment. If your Army cannot even defend itself from rioters trying to take their weapons, then there’s no point in having an army or a country for that matter. You really need to stop getting bogged down into this nonesense. We’re not in the US where we can sit around and peacefully debate the merits of capital punishment. We’re in a country at war. None of this crap should be tolerated. The government should have declared martial law months (if not years) ago. Riots and protests should not be allowed. You wanna run around the streets burning cars and throwing stones, you will be SHOT ON SIGHT. End of story.
Oh, and another thing. If i were to really delve into this stupid argument about whether to execute soldiers for defending themselves, I would like to see all the other folks who’ve caused death to also be executed. Start with the man who ordered the cross-border raid that caused 1200 deaths last summer. Execute him for high treason. Then maybe we can talk about these soldiers. Let’s execute every motherf***er who’s thrown a grenade, rigged a car bomb, fath Al Islam asshat, and then maybe we can look at the men who’ve given their lives for us at Nahr Al Bared. Unlike the rioters in Mar Mikhael, the soldiers did not ask to be there. They did not ask to be put in that position. They were just doing their job, defending law and order (or what passes for it) in our country. If anyone should be executed, it’s the imbeciles who willingly attacked army posts, and tried to take the soldiers weapons.
Until then, Mustapha, stop wasting our time with idiotic posts. Sorry if this comment offends you, but you’re really losing sight of what matters here.
SHUT THE F**k up all of you…most of the guys killed where innocent guys not protesters,some secouristes trying to help the injured tyou assholes….you make me sick….really…
Why should the guys who killed the Crook,and the corrupted judge Walid Ido get executed and not the ones who killed the innocent secourostes and the ambulance driver….you’re all so full of shit with your fake democracy propaganda and your freedome of speach lies…..
NOT ONLY HARIRI IS A MARTYR….NOT JUST HARIRI IS A LEBANESE….
This is not the Lebanon i want….not one where people/protesters instead of being hosed with water,get shot by snipers for 6 hours….the snipers wheren’t soldieres freaked by some protesters who tried to dissarme them….
Ok Ado,
Now take your head out of your ass and take a deep breath.
Ado,
If those who got killed were innocent bystanders, then the blame for their deaths still falls on those who INSTIGATED and provoked the army by firing at them first. What part of that do you not get?
Next thing you’re gonna want to execute the soldiers who fought in Nahr El Bared, for accidentally wounding some civilians, while battling Fath Al Islam.
Seriously, there are some royal imbeciles around these parts…
Btw…No one said anything about Hariri here. I’m not sure why you even brought him up. I specifically talked about the 1200 civilians who died last summer because of Hassan Nassrallah. I also brought up the civilians and army personel who died this past spring because of Fath Al Islam.
What part of that do you not get, Ado? You want to execute Lebanese soldiers but not Hassan Nassrallah or Shaker Absi? Are you a terrorist? Thrown any grenades lately?
Hezbo’s fixation on punishing the guilty never extends out to the string of violent acts carried out in Lebanon over the past several years; not only against politicians but the unlucky souls that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe punishing a military for real crimes does occasionaly exist – check out what happened in Hama, Syria in 1983 – but don’t condemn the Lebanese army for making the effort to protect the country. The protesters, probably, were mostly gullible folks who were guided to various locations by those who knew well in advance what the results would be. Profiting from the blood of your own citizens is the real crime here.
To Ado,
Unfortunately, I’ll respond to your language: You are the living prove of violence, terrorism and lack of civilization. It is a shame that you hold the Lebanese citizenship. Go to Iran and live over there. We don’t want your chaotic nihilistic ideology!!!
When Eido and Gebran died, you and your gang of mobs ate Baklawa. Now you want me to feel sad for the pain that you create and cause for yourself?! These mobs attacked the Army and it was a normal respond from the military!
To The Court Fool :
Look, Ado is the living example on how the safavid money is buying minds, hearts and blood in our country. Go to Dahyié, have you visited Dahiyé? It is the no man’s land, Kabul like, a dead place.
The most sad thing is that how the Lebanese from the South changed. They were the most tolerant, down to earth, big heart and open to everyone. They used to believe in Lebanon as a country.
Now, Lebanese from the South think of themselves as the Chosen People. First class citizen. They kill with no punishment and none should dare saying a word to them! They have the right to do everything they want and if you don’t obey they’ll kill you!
All Lebanese shall be equal and Shiaa should know that Sunni, Druze and Chrisitans are not second class citizens!!
Well guys, you really tought me a lesson in being soo objective and patriotic,thank for being more lebanese than me,ohhhhhh i’m sorry for being braiwashed by Iranians and persians….
You really are so pathetic…..do you really think i want the freaked solidiere who shot be executed?????by the way i’m against the death penalty,no one is allowed to take anothers life no matter what…..
I was just disgusted that you only saw a freaked soldiere ,but didn’t see that men where shot like birds for 6 hours….you didn’t see the sniper,and the comandants that gave the poor scapegoat soldiere to shoot the protesters,knowing the soldiere isn’t allowed to disobey his comandant….
Bad Vibes,
You cannot put some Lebanese protesters on the same level of the terrorists in nahr el bared
And no mr Bad Vibes i’m not a terrorist,and i’m against the weapons that are spread all around from hizbos,to lebanese forces to future movement…..only the army should have weapons….
Do you think that i was glad to see the Hariri supporters shoot under my house(i live in tripoli,right next to Ashraf Rifi’s house),as i will not be happy to see hizbo supporters fire,but stop seeing one side and turning the face to the others….
Sam,
Don’t you dare put the name of the patriotic martyr Gebran Tueini,next to the corrupted judge 3ido….
Don’t you dare yourself of insulting Walid Eido who was killed with his son for the same reasons and by the same people as Gebran Tueini.
You sound like an hermaphrodite in politics. Find yourself first and then talk.
I will attempt yet again to post a comment. I haven’t been able lately on your page Mustapha.
Ado:
You might not be Iranian or Syrian by nationality but you sure do sound their trompet. Excuse me if I will sound harsher than B.V and all the rest, but I bet that if you were not in Mar Mikhael burning tires with those thugs you probably were at home jubilant of the thought of yet another divine victory.
Like I attempted to say before on this blog, the army should have ran their tanks over them. I dare not think of how Teenagers who take to the streets and riot damaging public property, might turn out to be decent citizens. Along such barbarism I refuse to live, the same way I will not leave. Let them all go reak havoc in Iran, let them go to Ramallah and help their brothers their in their fight against the big Zionist evil.
Ado I would advise you to go with them.
Moustapha,
It seems that I cannot comment under marillionlb on your page. Any suggestions?
Guys i didn’t see that pissed when Hariri thugs invaded Ashrafieh and damaged private propreties and burned a bank and the danish embassy….no one fired at them….
Maybe we should discriminate,Hariri thugs are better than Nasrallah thugs of course they are better,they’re sunnis,they’re not under the syrian and iranian control,and they adore Hariri junior and Seniora….
Ado,
I thought it was the Hezb thugs who invaded Ashrafieh. Where did you come up with this Hariri thugs story? (Honest question, I might have missed it).
Listen, I’m sorry if I sounded so harsh earlier, but I’ve about had it with people letting stupidity get the best of them. The truth of the matter is, our country is under siege from both the inside and the outside. In such situations, I can’t for the life of me accept that rioting, burning cars, and throwing stones is acceptable, nor is it “innocent”. And i frankly would be saying the EXACT SAME THING about the rioters under your house in Tripoli. I don’t care who does it! If you explain to me why on earth you find it acceptable that people were throwing rocks at the army and trying to DISARM THEM, I might see your point of view.
I’d like to see you or anyone else try to take weapons away from a LAPD cop….
I really don’t understand how there is any way to call those people “innocent”. Innocent people do NOT attack army personel. Innocent people do NOT burn cars and damage private property. You might want to go look up “property damage” and “aggravated assault” in the LAW books. Those things are ILLEGAL (making them the very opposite of “innocent”).
Ado,
You should not hide the fact nor be ashamed for being an FPM supporter. We all make mistakes and hopefully you will wake up at some point. Your comment about the Ashrafieh fiasco and the danish embassy is a bit disingenuous. Anybody who breaks the law should be stopped and the army’s response should be consistent with the threats being posed against it. However, unlike the Dahieh’s highly choreographed antics, you did not have Harriri or Seniora asking people to go break up the place or burn anything during the Danish thing. Your most adored leaders, Aoun and Nassrallah, have PHDs in incitement and have no problem in openly encouraging their robots to break the law. We all remember Aoun’s infamous press conference in January 2007 when he threatened people not to go to work because they will not be able to make it home. And he delivered on his promise as we all know. I could go on and on about Nasrallah but you get the picture. Nasrallah and Aoun simply think they are above the law. One believes that this is due to divine intervention that makes him close to god while the other feels that way because he thinks he is god.
Bad Vibes,
First of all,in the Ashrafieh rioting,the rioters where complitly sunnis,they came with buses paid by Hariri…I was going from Tripoli to Beyrouth that day,and saw manny bus with Hariri pics on them….if you get back to the news of that black day you’ll be sure of what i said…..
And second of all i totally agree with you,i’m against rioting,burning tires,destroying propreties no matter what political party is responsible for it,and especially i’m against attacking the army with stones…..I am with demonstrating in a civil way….
As for the”innocents” i was talking about i meant the guys that where giving medical support to the wounded… not the other rioters…..
I’m revolted by the violence i’m seeing among the lebanese,and how everybody’s got weapons…what discusts me the most is how everyone sees only his opponents mistakes,and not his allies……
I’ve seen it with my own eyes(and my wife who is a fervent Future Movement supporter saw it too)how some guys under my house in tripoli smashed and destroyrd a car parking next to mmy house just because it had Frangieh’s pic on it….
I’ll tell you i went to only one demonstration and that was on 14 march 2005…..and since i made up my mind not to ever go on the street for the sake of a politician….they’re all a unch of liars working for their own sake….
Can’t argue with your last post, Ado.
Dear Ado,
The only source that had posted that Ashrafieh rioters were Hariri guys is the infamous Al-Tayyar….
And we all know how true the information they post….
Lebanese Patriot,
Dude the Ashrafieh riot was called for by “Dar Al Ifta2″,financed by Hariri,and licenced by the minister of interior Hassan Sabe3…..
And then if it was pure FPM propaganda,just tell me where are the results of the investigations about it????and where is the financial help to those people with damaged proprety….go ask Talal Makdessi……
Ado, you are repeating what was said yesterday on OTV. come out of your shell and admit your allegeance, there is no shame in that. I wonder if you were amongst those brainwashed who bombarded us with dribble yesterday on OTV.
Yes there were some sunnis in the Asharafieh riots and Shia’s as well. As for who attacked the ISF and churches I guess we will never know.
One correction if I may, during black sunday one civil defense defense member was killed (and I have my doubts as to by the hands of whom).
Ado, the day you will be able to look beyond Aoun, Nasrallah, Berri, Jumblat, Geagea…etc speeches, you will feel the same frustration most of us feel and will see things much clearly.
I was disgusted by the call to execute the perpetrators. Still I don’t buy the self-defense argument– the only thing that’s kept the army at a distance from both parties is that they managed not to shoot and kill protesters. An officer in particular should have the disposition to reign in his men and call for the water cannons and/or rubber bullets. Anyone who argues otherwise now has a severe double standard. Don’t forget– to all you LFers out there– that on Jan 23rd last year, Geagea told his followers that the army wasn’t doing its job and was protecting the opposition strikers. If the army had shot at LFers, you’d be singing a different tune. No live bullets, but disperse protesters before it gets out of hand.
I love your last sentence, Mustapha
Let’s hope Iranian fruits stay in Iran and let’s encourage our local farmers.
If the Hezb wants to execute our soldiers for alleged crimes, then first let us execute Bashar al-Assad for many more alleged crimes. Once Assad is executed we will consider the execution of some of our soldiers that may have failed at the task.
So we can ask Nasrallah to wait until the end of the International Tribunal, and the execution of Assad before we proceed on the soldiers’ tribunal.
EDB: things are a little more complicated. If someone started firing at the army, at that moment they cannot see where the fire is coming from. Especially if it originated from different locations. There will be confusion and the army may be forced to respond in order to take back control of the situation. Those demonstrators stuck in between are in trouble.
The army is not the police and hence it does not use rubber or water. It’s the army. You don’t joke with the army. Because if on that day there was an attempt to launch a war, the army had to stop it immediately before it spreads. So the army will have an instinct to respond very quickly and harshly to gunfire.
Anyway, let’s consider the case where the army doesn’t respond. Then the 3 men who (allegedly) fired shots at the army would have continued to fire more shots. More army soldiers could have been taken down. And then the army was going to respond at some point, and the result would have been the same. This is why the army uses immediate response tactics once it is being targeted.
It was a complex situation, very hard to deal with, because on one hand you have violent demonstrators, on another hand you have (allegedly) gunfire from unknown sources, and finally you have the army who’s the job is to prevent the situation from going out of hand.
In certain countries, the police shoots at demonstrators and kill them without being shot at. In the case of Shiah, the army was being shot at. Different situation.
EDB,
If the LF’ers were trying to take weapons from the soldiers, then yes, I’d expect the soldiers to fire back and neutralize the threat. I don’t honestly care if it was the LF (for which I have zero sympathy), the PSP or Hizballah sympathizers. I really don’t. This is not about picking sides. This is about changing the dumb mentality in Lebanon and starting to learn that the ONLY acceptable behavior is peaceful and democratic behavior (ie property damage and disarming soldiers is NOT acceptable). This is about learning that the ONLY acceptable authority should be that of the state institutions (the government, the parliament, the police, the army, etc.) Not the LF, not Hezb militias and not the Palestinian arms in camps. I make NO DIFFERENTIATION. To me, anyone that’s outside law and order should be treated like a criminal. Period.
Ado,
Dude… Your information are based on lies from Al Tayyar and Al Manar and other propaganda media sites. They are the same media sites that claim that Hariri is the one who brought Fat7 al Islam to Lebanon.
Lebanese Patriot,
I never knew that Seymour Hersh,Teymour Goxel,Pelligrini,Baker and Hamilton and all the others where employees at Manar Tv…..thanx for expanding my horizon…..
Ado Dude….
So, just by mentioning non Arabic names will make your news authentic???
I am really impressed.
Why didn’t you mention sana or iranpost to impress us more?