Doesn’t Martyr Hajj Deserve Official Day of Mourning?

With all due respect to those whose death came earlier than Major General Francois Hajj’s, isn’t this patriot worth an early decision by Fouad Saniora’s government to mark a day of mourning across Lebanon?

Saniora’s unconstitutional government and the February 14 bloc behind it have accustomed the Lebanese people on announcing one, two and sometimes three days of mourning only minutes after the assassination of one of their figures. But this had not been the case with martyr Hajj.

Public resentment had started minutes after the Baabda explosion claimed the lives of Hajj and his bodyguard Kheirallah Hedwan.
Anxious to find out the circumstances of the explosion, people were jumping from a TV station to another. When the victim was identified, frustration prevailed. It was noticed that the news of Hajj’s martyrdom was being covered by nearly every satellite and local TV channel except for one pro-February 14 station that cut its coverage to broadcast regular programs.

Frustration became resentment after Saniora’s cabinet meeting Wednesday night. The statement read by the minister of information in the unconstitutional government Ghazi Aridi stressed the need to speed up the presidential election and listed the virtues of martyr Hajj but ignored two of them: that he had refused to collaborate with the Israeli occupation and that he led the army’s honorable battle against the Lebanese Forces of Samir Geagea in the Qoleiat region in the late 1980’s. The Lebanese Forces is now a key constituent of the February 14 alliance. Nevertheless, Saniora’s cabinet statement did not declare a day of mourning for Hajj.

The time is now past 10:00pm Thursday, more than 40 hours on the martyrdom of Hajj and his companion. It was only then that the minister of defense in Saniora’s government Elias el-Murr announced Friday before noon a mourning period for Hajj. The announcement came during a talk show on the LBCI TV station.
In another clear sign of stutter and hesitation by the ruling bloc, the minister of education Khaled Kabbani announced late at night on Thursday that all schools would be closed the next day. But public and private schools had been instructed to mark Hajj’s martyrdom in playgrounds only by chanting the national anthem. Similar to Murr’s announcement, Kabbani’s decision came too late as more than half the schools across Lebanon missed the just-before-midnight announcement.

With all due respect to those who passed away before martyr Hajj, what makes their memory more valuable than his?
With all due respect to the blood spilled upon the altar of this nation, the blood of martyrs Hajj and his companion is as precious.
With all due respect to the political affiliations of those who went before Hajj, this martyr’s only affiliation was Lebanon’s most respected military institution which has been playing the burdensome duty of preserving stability in this country.
For the heroes of my country, I salute you.

‘a blogger who cut his teeth on the cedar revolution’? come on, 3mou. let’s be serious here. your blog is nothing more than entertainment and hype. one has to approach it the way one approaches main stream media here in the US. it’s a good guage to see what many in the M14 camp think (the comments posted by a number of flakes also help).your problem cuz, is that you take yourself seriously. some foreigners with a specific agenda told you that you are a champion of democracy and maybe helped you out here and there, helped you tune up your weblog, now they are wining and dining you on your visit to lebanon, and you have come to think of yourslef as lebanon’s own version of Sy Hersh.

It is because of this critical thinking that this anonymous commenter respects you about ten times more than the likes of Badran or Abou Kais.

I believe that the absolute certainty of knowing the truth and the lack of “what if I am wrong” posts can only lead to blindness and narrow mindedness.

Every single killing is direct consequence of what the Syrians said the previous night, every single person not thinking the exact same way is an idiot be it Aoun or the french president, every single follower of any party in the opposition is either blind or stupid. Everyhting is black and white and they are always on the white side.

Lucky them :-)

I am sure there are tons of pro-opposition blogs that are as un-critical and single mindedly defending Syria, I just don’t happen to follow any of them.

For whatever it matters, if you become like them I’ll still read you but your opinion will matter much much less.

Thus spoke The Anonymous Coward ;-)

And Ali you are being way to too harsh on Mus…

Ali- In defense to Mus, first rule of civilized communications is “no personal attacks”. Attacking Mus doesn’t impress us.
Can we go back and discuss the issues at hand, instead of stabbing and insulting each other? Leave that style to our politicians who are doing a fair share of it.

Let’s stick to Mus’s posting and play CSI. Giving syria the benefit of a doubt, let’s start with motives. Who would benefit the most from Hajj killing?

Mus, Unrelated,

I think I am not updating on your blog. Could be wrong, could you check? Thx.

Related: we should spend more time asking how to stop and catch the killers.

Ali, This blog is a welcome change from most other Lebanon related blogs. It’s true that it is slanted towards March14 but “ALL” the March 8 slanted blogs I came across fall into one of three categories:1) All glory be to the glorified (your) Sayed Hassan whose words and inspiration come directly from god almighty and thus is above any sort of criticism. or 2) Long live General Aoun who is the only true patriot that was ever born in Lebanon (with the exception of Sayed Hassan, only after the signing of the memo of Understanding though) and that whoever else who does not believe in Aoun is a traitor and is on Harriri’s payroll or 3) The US/the West/Capitalism are the cause of all problems in this world, and Lebanon in particular, and long live Communism/Socialism/Marx/(Greater)Syria
Somehow I believe that you, Ali fall in all three categories. Correct me if I am wrong.

Mus: Yes, open mindedness and debate are at the heart of a liberal democracy. But the continuous mafia-like whackings of political figures in Lebanon are typical of dictatorial regimes—nothing democratic about those events.

Clearly some of your blog contributors do not understand the difference between debating and dictating.

There are also some undercurrents in Lebanon not found in Western democratic nations. For example, where inbreeding (consanguinity) is still common, tribalism is not simply an idea one sets aside. Not intended as a pun, but many of the problems of the Middle East are embedded.

Being politically correct, and being open to various theories is admirable in general. However, it can be taken to an extreme, at which point it becomes a bit ridiculous. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar (as Freud said). 2+2=4. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It’s usually a duck. You get the idea.

The Syrian regime is pretty transparent. They have announced their intentions each and every time, before an assassination has taken place (read Farouk Al Sharaa’s speech from the day prior to Hajj’s assassination). They have stated time and again that they will not tolerate a Lebanon that doesn’t move to the same drumbeat as Damascus. I really don’t understand why it’s so hard for some people to just see the truth when it’s literally stabbing them in the eye.

If I could draw (and if any of you can, perhaps you can indulge me here), but I have the idea of this great caricature, depicting one guy, knife in hand, stabbing at a victim repeatedly, while the victim clamors: “I must keep an open mind.”

Criminal cases have nothing to do with your “gut feeling,” or what your ideological convictions tell you. These fall under the purview of raw police investigations, meticulous forensic work, and much vigilant security forces’ intelligence work that should be stalking and hunting would-be trouble makers.

Motive plays a part in all criminal acts, but cannot alone be the base for conviction. In Lebanon’s case, there are many local, regional and international players who benefit from all these crimes, and the responsibility of any independent police/security/intelligence force is to follow the evidence and present it to the public in a timely manner, and not engage in shrill political accusations.

Where are the police press conferences/briefings about each of the criminal cases, their similarities/dissimilarities, evidence, suspects etc? Many in the current government are shady individual who have engaged in crime, thievery, double and triple loyalties, you name it. Why do you believe their political rhetoric now? Why not insist on them to do their job and show us what their investigations have shown thus far? Where is accountability? Where’s the truth?

My attempts in past comments to engage you in such a discussion got shot down repeatedly. I hope that Lebanon will be spared a series of counter-assassinations before we are convinced that there maybe other hands manipulating the strings.

Btw-I am not the same ali 12:48 above-this is however not a comment on his comment.

PS-

BV-I just read your comment.

There are many who can read different things into the political rhetoric of a government official. That is not evidence of anything. That is your own ideology overpowering an incongruous political scene at the moment. The fact is Hajj leaned more towards the opposition’s camp. We need an investigation into this and all other assassinations/crimes. Where is the “quacking” evidence? That is what responsible citizens ask for.

On a similar vein, Ja3ja3 has in the past made it a habit of forecasting assassinations, and he has yet to be wrong.

Helooooooooo,Any body home??????
Here we go again,the Syrians did it,the Syrians did it.The same god damm song.You guys are a bunch of losers like I said before,but I like you guys,because I see you like little kids looking for a mommy for your Lost “Cedar Revolution” and Mustapha is on the front seat.Let me tell you something Mus. As much you and your leaders dream about it you just cant put Syria aside from Lebanon,it will never happen.Why ? very simple..because we are the only two Arab-State that are different to the others.We may speak the same language like the Jordanians,Saudis,Libians and the rest but you cant deny that we have a totally different mentality and that include any Lebanese and Syrians from all the sects.We are married by traditions and thinking.Is not going to happen,as simple as that,you just dont want to accept the reality of what is happening.Your leaders blame Syria for the killing and you defend them,knowing that the M14 leaders are a bunch of thief and criminal with boold in their hand.Why?How can you follow them?Do you see the reason why your Revolution was Doom from the start? Do you think that they care about you or me? For how long the Syrians Stay in Lebanon?Who served them?Who had the balls to leave his country,land in exile? Hariri,Geagea,Jumblad,Fathfa,Nayla ?Non of them my friend.For what i Know AOUN is the only one.The rest were in Lebanon,living the high live with their master the Syrians,Puting 40 BILLION Deb to Lebanon when a Study made it around 4 years ago shows that real Deb for Lebanon was around 17 BILLION.Where is the rest Mus? In your pocket,my pocket?You know they are in Siniora’s,Hariri’s,jumblad’s and others M14 pockets.Do you guys think that they are there to serve the Lebanese people?They are there to serve their own interest.And do you want prove of that ?Just look at what they did to your Cedar Revolution,they betray you people.Your and our Revolution is the same.Is the Revolution to save lebanon.And is happening now in two fronts.The difference is that we are fighting the real one and you guys are lost in Limbo.You guys are blind,confuse,disorientated for what they did to you.Is ok. at the end of the battle we’ll wellcome you people with our arms open because at the end of the day we all still LEBANESE.Long Live The General AOUN.God bless him. Amen

JAS-Mafia-like whackings are also a time-honored tradition and part of the venerable history of many a liberal democracy.

I really can’t believe how stupid you pro 14 feb blind followers can be,really…
You can never build a country,with being blind,deaf,and totally stupid followers…
Hajj have led manny battels against Israel,and The Lebanese Forces in Souk El Ghareb….and he was from the ones who blamed General Soleiman for his visit to criminal such as Geagea…
Let’s see,why didn’t Seniora’s goverment annouce a day of mourning and closing…doean’t Hajj deserve it????or is the one color gouverment one for a certain category of lebanese sheeps???
The late annoucement of a mouring day by the coward Elias Murr after a clear demand from Hajj’s son of why they didn’t announce a day of mourning,and it wasn’t even an official declaration….listen to how this moron Murr put it”Seniora phoned him and told him that he was going to announce a mourning day” so much for institution,so much for gouverment….next time two minister will phone each others and decide over some importent decision,and someone stupid annouce it on a private tv in a private interview……YOU MORONS DISCUST ME
If General Aoun announce an amendment of the constitution to save the country,we see all 14 feb.dogs bark on him,but if one of the future movment crooks announce the amendment,then they becom the country’s savior…
If 14 feb fuckwits allie themselves to hizbolla and amal,to try tyo cheat them for mp seats so they steal the majoritty with cheating….but when General; Aoun allies himself to Hizbolla with a clear writen agreement then he becomes the source of evil….
YOU DON’T A COUNTRY YOU COWARDS.
When Hariri the father was killed,all fingers pointed at Frangieh and the Karame goverment to step down,and it did….how manny killing should we witness before this Sankou7a goverment demission….

Yes, Ali…Time honored by the MAFIA, not the deomocratic process.

JAS,

You are assuming that it is the Lebanese assassinating each other nowadays. That is yet to be proven.

We know for a fact that outside powers, Syria, Israel, the US, many other Arab countries, have engaged in assassinating politicians and religious leaders in Lebanon in the past. Some of these countries happen to be “liberal democracies.” They may engage in democratic dialogue within their own states, but reserve a different set of rules for us.

In lebanon and elsewhere in the ME, we still suffer from a tribal mentality, but neither has the West shed its colonial mindset.

Go after them Fadi(USA),Ali and Ado.GO !!!!!
Tell them the way it is. 100 % agree with you guys.

Ali:

No, I am not specifically assuming that Lebanese are assassinating Lebanese.

My assumption is: Assassinations of elected officials are anti-thematic to democracy.

However, in their arguments and claims in the media some Lebanese are likely complicit.

ya MM ‘your’ syed? what does that mean? so you think because i disagree with much of what is written on this blog and my name is ali that he is my syed? fyi, there are some who stand outside your manichean view of the world.

Ali,

I wasn’t specifically talking about the Hajj assassination. Are you kidding me? Asking where the quack is? Let’s see.

What country’s military has had a presence in Lebanon for over 30 years, only to get kicked out 2 years ago?
What country has refused to recognize our sovereignty or independence over the years?
What foreign regime has threatened and warned to break Lebanon over our heads?
What foreign regime has time and again said “We will not accept a Lebanon that’s not in step with us and we will go to ANY length to ensure this”?
What foreign regime has stated time and again (look at each and every one of their speeches) that they want a return to the pre 2005 status?

Now weigh in the following:

What side have ALL the assassinations targeted?

Why would the side who’s suffered the assassination want to assassinate their own? Diminish their majority status in parliament and undermine their own position? I am looking for motive here (as is the common practice in most police investigations).

Who benefits from the crimes?

Who’s been known to arm, or allow arm shipments to the opposition? The same opposition that is threatened by the M14 side (read Hezbollah’s weapons)?

(and let’s put Hajj aside for a moment. There is compelling evidence that he was Suleiman’s man, first and foremost, and with Suleiman’s switch to a more M14 stance, Hajj’s assassination should be seen in that light)

Now. None of this is evidence. None of this stands in a court of law. I admit that. I don’t know PERSONALLY who killed Hajj or any of the others. But when I say “2+2=4″…I’m looking at common sense. Adding together all the observations I’ve just listed (and some more I have no room for here).

As i said, if quacks like a duck…it’s usually a duck.

You have an opposition that doesn’t want to be disarmed. You have their backers and allies in Syria/Iran who finance them and arm them. And who constantly tell us they won’t accept a March 14 controlled Lebanon at any cost.

Is it really rocket science?

And you have a March 14 group that is vehemently anti-Syrian and anti-Hezbollah.

It’s really as simple as A is against B and B is against A.
So when I see A with a black eye, it is a fair assumption to think that B must have been the one to punch A. It makes no sense to assume that A punched himself in the face. I just don’t get that logic.

Some of you people (not specifically Ali or anyone else) need to learn a thing or 2 about common sense, logic, rational thinking and the how police investigations (that you mentioned) are conducted. Motive! Cause & effect! Logistics, etc. All questions that have to be asked first.

Like I said, I don’t know who killed Hajj or the others. But I do know what observations I have listed above. And i do have a brain that can add 2+2.

What i don’t understand is the people who refuse to see the simple answer in front of their eyes every single time, and still find creative ways and conspiracy theories to justify their view of the world (again, i don’t mean ali specifically here).

Here’s an idea that might offer some clues: has anyone digged-up any dirt on Hajj?
We know he was against Israel, led the Palestinian camp assault. What else? There must be something else in his past that might give a clue.

Real Ali, I certainly do not hold a Manichean view of the world but you certainly can’t blame me for characterizing you as a Sayed Hassan devotee given the fact that you repeated verbatim his usual mantra about anyone who disagrees with him as being beholden to foreign powers. I quote some of your own words “some foreigners with a specific agenda told you that you are a champion of democracy and maybe helped you out here and there, helped you tune up your weblog, now they are wining and dining you on your visit to lebanon,”

Libanus:

Were the assassins motivated by vendetta or does the bigger picture involve replacing Hajj with some other candidate in that position? Hajj assassinated, someone will replace him. A battle for that important position could be telling.

Libanus as i said it before,Hajj was close to General Aoun,and he fought the lebanese Forces with 51st brigade at souk el gharb,and he opposed the visit of General soleiman to Geagea…..

Ali: “..in the past” is often irrelevant
in changing democracies and new political designations.

United States Executive Order 12333
December 4, 1981
2.11Prohibition on Assassination. No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination.

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/1981-reagan.html

Google: Executive Order 12333
See:
Memorandum on Executive Order 12333 and Assassination
at http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/cchrp/Use%20of%20Force/October%202002/Parks_final.pdf

very eloquent

BV,

Many of your questions in the beginning could be applied to Israel: long military presence in Lebanon; active intelligence on the ground (notice some of the pinpointing of buildings and houses in Dhahye and elsewhere in the South Israel went after in the Summer ’06 war and the recent Rafe’ assassination network most recently caught); Israel threatens Lebanon repeatedly, violates its sovereignty on a daily basis, is still occupying part of its land and its primary policy goals is to weaken HA take out its weapons; etc…

One can easily construct a counter narrative to yours proposing how it could be Israel behind these bombings:

M14 is not officially Israel’s allies (not that it would care if they even were)so it has no problem eliminating some of them to further a policy goal. Israel’s failure to destroy HA made it hang its hope on an internal struggle between the Lebanese to get to that same end. Any of these assassinations/crimes could serve that purpose. In fact it does not make any sense for Israel to kill HA or opposition politicians/sympathizers because that could provide more rational to HA’s fear that it is a target, and give it more legitimacy to keep its weapons. Furthermore, Syria, in fact, was politically hurt repeatedly after each assassination as it brought more pressure and condemnation on it, and provided more fodder to the US and M14 to go after it and its allies in Lebanon.

What is logical and rational to you has a counter-logic and rationality on the other side. You are convinced Syria has motive, just like the other side is convinced that it is more in Israel’s interest to instigate trouble between the Lebanese to push HA into a corner and finally disarm it.

So, my suggestion is to stop these ideological constructs and demand that this government, for once, conduct a proper investigation and share with us their findings, rather than rationalizing their ineptitude, and excusing their uselessness to score repeatedly tiresome and ineffectual political points that help nothing in curbing the political violence that is ravaging our country.

MM,
I read Ali’s comment and I thougth he was too harsh on Mus and it never occured to me for a second he is “his” sayyed’s mantra on the issue.

Your argument did not convince this reader.

“his usual mantra about anyone who disagrees with him as being beholden to foreign powers”

So next time I head M14 camp accuse the opposition of “answering to foreign powers” such as syria an Iran, I should suspect they are following the Sayyed’s mantra ?
Or is everyone who disagrees with your point of view automatically a blind follower of the sayyid ?

BadVibel,
I think you are missing the point of this particular post.

The point is not “if it quacks like a duck…it’s usually a duck.” the point is “if it quacks like a duck is it healthy to ask ourselves what if it is not a duck” or should we automatically assume it is a duck end of discussion.

How about every 5 posts confirming the duck theory we throw one post about the not a duck theory or the two different ducks theory.

Because you know even 1+1 can sometimes be 10.

Josey Whales,
“Related: we should spend more time asking how to stop and catch the killers. ”

Kalemak min dahab :-)
However there are people to whom we are paying money to stop and catch the killers, and they are failing.

The only people I never heard accusing anyone are the army and the police!
The head of the army said “Syria is not behind fath el islam”, ok so who was? Or was he lying ? So we is he being elected as president? Why are we still supporting those electing him as president?

Ali :

Nice, very nice…I couldn’t put it in better words for the M14 fools.Down with Siniora Goverment and M14.Bunch of thieft and murders.The end is very close for them and is coming fast.Long Live the General AOUN.Godd bless him.Amen

Ali:

Re Sidon?

Borders establish sovereignty. Government organizes. Laws enforce order. Sovereign states are composed of government, related laws, and their populations. Borders define the territory of the population under the laws of any organized government.

Contrary to sovereignty:

Having denied the borders, government, laws, and other components of sovereign states, independent militias are unfit to claim any of these as a matter of sudden convenience. Moreover, many such groups clearly deny the conventions international laws proclaim. In fact, some in Middle Eastern governments not only have failed to reign in such groups located within their territories—but instead have occasionally encouraged such lawlessness against others. Islamic Jihad is one of many terrorist groups.

Members of the Islamic Jihad repeatedly attacked the Israeli population. One expects organized governments to act against such groups. That Israel or any other government body would act against the lawlessness of independent militias is hardly earthshaking news. Those who fail to recognize that such groups violate sovereignty as well as international conventions are likely to suffer at least some consequences.

Where neither a democratically elected government nor the conventions of international laws are respected or upheld, troubles will persist. Moreover, the greater the number of lawless groups and dictators operating outside international conventions the greater and more varied the sources of turmoil. Anarchy is the source of that turmoil.

JAS,

I cannot believe you are defending a country that itself has not defined its borders (talk about sovereignty), continues to build illegal settlements on occupied territory, is holding millions of Palestinians hostage, while denying other millions the right to return to their land.

Israel has violated, and continues to violate every international law and convention in the book. They are more in violation of Security Council resolutions than any other country in history and no one calls them on it. So how convenient for them, or you, to define what suits you of international conventions and norms when it suits you.

The fact is many of these militias would have never existed were it not for the most vicious Israeli violations to begin with. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1978 to allegedly kick out the PLO (which itself created when it usurped Palestine and caused the refugee crisis), but then…..stayed. Why? If it had good intentions and respected Lebanon’s sovereignty, why did it stay? Go back to that moment and you will understand why non-state actors such as HA exist today. Israel cannot have it every which way possible.

TAC,
I did not expect to convince all readers. However your counter argument is rather shallow. Not to dwell on this issue too much, you clearly notice a main Mantra(A commonly repeated word or phrase) when it comes to Hizbo supporters just like you notice a main theme from Aounis and even March 14. For HA, it is that March 14 are controlled by foreign powers to fulfill a special agenda yada yada yada. As for Aounis it is basically that March 14 are just a bunch of thieves and Aounis like to invoke the term “national debt” in every 3rd word they use in their commentary. March 14 does accuse HA of being beholden to IRAN and Syria (specifically rather than using the catch all “foreign powers”), but the difference here is that HA freely admits and brags about the support they get from IRAN and don’t forget that the infamous rally that was held on March 8, 2005 was held under the title “Gratitude and loyalty to Syria” look it up for yourself. So when I said “your sayed” it is something that HA supporters have no problem with just like if I told an Orange fanatic that “your General” said so and so or a March 14 supporter that “your PM Siniora” said so and so. There was no personal offense intended.
Hence, as for your last question “Or is everyone who disagrees with your point of view automatically a blind follower of the sayyid ?” the answer is NO, depending on their answer they could be a blind supporter of Aoun. This is an oversimplification but I hope you got my point.

Ali,

Yeah. No matter what I say, it’s always Israel.

You have yet to explain to me in a constructive way how Israel benefits from weakening March 14 by assassinating its MPs, and how it benefits from a presidential vaccum.

I’m not defending Israel here (so spare me that argument). Israel has committed countless agressions in the South and elsewhere. But it always follows the same laws of logic that I’m trying to apply here: Israel invaded the South to erradicate its enemy the PLO. Makes sense, from their point of view. Israel setup a security zone to defend their northern borders. Again, makes sense from their point of view. 2+2=4.

And here you have it from the horses’ mouth today: Farouq Al Sharaa says:
Sharaa had rejected “pressure” on Lebanese friends of Syria, saying “everyone now wants us to step in and pressure Aoun, Hizbullah, Berri, Wiam Wahhab, Oussama Saad, Karami and Franjieh.”

“They are all friends of Syria and they are better off now than they were when the Syrian forces were in Lebanon,” Sharaa had said, adding that postponing the elections “is not the end of the world.”

I don’t refuse the outside possibility that someone else is behind the assassinations. I am perfectly willing to ask questions (that is what you said, no?). But let’s not kid ourselves about motives and logic here. If you want to use these reverse-logic type of arguments, I’m going to go ahead and state something ridiculous like “What if Hezbollah is really working FOR Israel?” Maybe they abducted the Israeli soldiers last year on orders from Tel Aviv, specifically to give Israel a pretext to bomb the crap out of Lebanon…

How’s that for a reverse-logic theory?

Howcome nobody asks THOSE questions when it comes to Israel? But when it comes to Syria, got forbid we look at the LOGICAL answer. We always have to come up with some remote farflung theory that’s just as ridiculous as Hezbollah working for Israel.

So from now on, everytime Hezbollah does something and calls it “resistance”, I’m going to go ahead and prod you about howcome you’re not accusing them of being Israeli agents.

This stuff gets ridiculous after a while, man.

BV-

You are still missing the point..

Let’s move on…

I don’t think I’m missing the point at all. You’re wondering why we’re not open to other possibilities than the obvious ones. I’m telling you “We ARE open to other possibilities.”, but we also realize that the obvious ones are the more likely (by far). And to waste too much time debating remote possibilities FIRST (which many seem to want to do) is dumb.

Ali,

If there is a state in the Middle East that does not violate the civil and human rights of others in one way or another, please name that state and demonstrate the even-handedness of its relevant laws.

MM,
> So when I said “your sayed” it is something that HA supporters have no problem with …

I might be completely wrong and off base, but all I am saying is that I did not get the “HA supporter” from the comment itself , to me the comment could as easily have come from a Aounist, a HAist a Karamist or a Haririst jealous of Mus …
Again the problem could be me, and what is obvious to everyone completely went over my head.

BadVibel,
I know you are not replying to my comment n28 but just in case, your latest couple seem exactly on the point. So I guess I should retract my rant :-)

Ali,

As I see no list of countries from you I shall continue without it.

Disenfranchisement and diminishment of the civil and human rights of Jews in Muslim governed lands many times prompted immigration to find shelter from those abuses. As Natives of the Middle East they were, however, refugees with no homeland to shelter them. UN Resolution 181 sought to outline a singular homeland.

Borders were defined in UN Resolution 181. http://www.cfi-usa.org/mapdata/historicalmaps.html

May 15, 1948, was the day envisaged for the termination of the British Mandate. Israel would then declare its independence from neighboring states.

Israelis understood the need to protect that assigned homeland.
Who chose to war against the Partition Plan?
Beginning on November 29, 1947, Palestinian Arabs took the offensive with the help of volunteers from neighboring countries.
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_land_1948.php

There is an old story about a king who was considering invading neighboring lands. Unsure concerning his prospects he inquired regarding the outcome. The priestess at the oracle responded, “A great land will be lost.” Confident, the king proceeded with his invasion. But it turned out that the great land lost was that king’s land.

Repeatedly Arab countries conducted offensives against Israel and lost. Repeatedly agreements declared “interim” borders decided by the outcome of the battles. Repeatedly Israel has placed the land others lost in battles back into the hands of those who intend to oppress them.

Due to “interim” agreements Israel has independence without fully established borders.

As with the treatment of Jews, many Middle Eastern nations have disenfranchised and diminished the civil and human rights of Palestinians. In the Palestinian case, many governments have designated refugee camps and restricted their civil rights in laws. Those nations are therefore faulted twice over—once for their bigoted treatment of Jews, and once again for their hypocritical treatment of Palestinians.

There is no such thing as a refugee camp with permanent denial of citizenship or other civil and human rights anywhere in the United States.

With regard to Lebanon: Lebanon has yet to establish full independence from Syria. An independent government in Lebanon therefore remains pretentious.

JAS,

What exactly is your point? That Arab regimes are abysmal dictators?

How doe that exactly exonerate Israel from its sins?

Again, you like to have it both ways. You want to claim Israel as a liberal democracy and deride the autocratic nature of its neighbors, while, when it suits you, justify its vicious policies by claiming oneness with the neighborhood.

Which one are you?

If two entities violate the civil and human rights of their neighbors then two are at fault. It is not a matter of taking sides–after all I am neither Israeli nor Palestinian, neither Jewish nor Muslim. Freedom is a gift one gives to another.

http://www.linktv.org/video/2091
must see, related to hajj assassination