Yet another savage assassination of an anti-Syrian M.P
To any March 14 supporter, there is no doubt who was responsible for this savage act. A few days ahead of the election of a President, Syria wants to reduce as much as possible the number of voters who are planning to vote for an anti-Syrian President with a simple majority.
The opposition however is skeptical, as this argument by one of their own was made in another blog:
Go back to news archives and look at the events that took place before every single assasination. You will realise that in every case, the Lebanese drew nearer to a solution. A bomb goes off, spews hatred and sectarianism amongst the anti-Syrians, they start talking alot of senseless bullshit and piss off the opposition. Then we’re back to square one.
In this case, there is the Berri initiative. It was proposed by an opposition leader, and it came in the interest of the country. Syria had no problem with it and praised it and so did the rest of the opposition. This assasination took place today to break up this initiative, keep march 14 on it’s toes by accusing Syria again without even surely knowing who did it. Also, it serves as a popularity boost for March 14 by showing they are the poor victims of criminal activity by whoever they accuse.
In other words, to the opposition, it’s not Syria, it’s someone who wants us to think it’s Syria (except for the FPM who are sure that it was Geagea who did it) But will that argument fly? Are March 14 really cannibalizing themselves?
Like in Mr. Gebran Tueni’s case, everyone thought that Mr. Ghanem was outside the country. Whoever did this must have inside sources in the Sureté General in the Airport, a security body that is closely linked to the pro-Syrian opposition.
Update:
Majority leader Saad Hariri reacted to Mr. Ghanem’s killing: “Syria responded to the Israeli air strikes by killing the Lebanese. I have never seen a regime that is more cowardly than that of Bashar El Assad.
Mr. Hariri nevertheless sent what could be a signal to Mr. Berri: We will not be intimidated and the presidential election will not be canceled. we will head to the elections as a unified front.
Hello, my name is Mustapha and I've been blogging about Lebanese society, business and politics since February 2005.
Quoting a comment from another blog, how impressive. I would have quoted Abu Ryad the shop keeper in order to represent the opposition, but hey Mustapha, you outdid yourself on that one. I am sure “Lover” the author of that comment would be proud to be featured as the opposition spokesperson.
Anything to score a point, and what does it bring? Nothing.
The “comment from another blog” makes no sense. I don’t understand why you would bother to feature it on here.
It’s one thing if it was a logical or plausible argument. But it isn’t. It is built on the following fallacies:
1. The Berri initiative being Lebanese. It wasn’t it’s been obvious (and acknowledged yesterday) that it was a SYRIAN initiative. When March 14 rejected its preconditions, the Syrians reacted. Why on earth would the US/Israelis want to torpedo an initiative which their allies can simply say “No” to?
2. We were “closer to a solution”? No we were not. I seriously think some people live in a fantasy world. There was no solution in sight. Just because someone bandies the word “initiative” around doesn’t mean there is a solution in sight. I can point a gun to your head, and demand your wallet, and call it an “initiative”. Does that make it so? I don’t think so. The Berri “initiative” was tantamount to a list of demands (the right to veto the next president, the right to reexamine 1559 and 1701, a government of unity AFTER the presidential elections, etc.) And the threat was that if M14 did not accept those conditions, there would be no presidential elections. Initiative my ass. Closer to a solution? I think not.
3. The assertion that it benefits Israel to have a divided sectarian Lebanon. That is the prime assertion behind the idiotic argument made in the “quote” above. It simply plays on years of accepted practice that “Israel benefits from a divided Lebanon”. Has anyone actually stopped and THOUGHT about that for a second? How exactly does it benefit Israel in today’s context? Israel would love nothing more than to have a Lebanon that was unified, and at peace with Israel. It would love nothing more than a western-backed strong central government, that’s independent of Syria’s proxies and that helps it maintain a secure border, so it can turn its attention to dealing with Syria/Hamas elsewhere. Israel does not benefit at all in having Lebanon divided and unstable. It may have in the past, but it doesn’t today. Syria on the other hand, benefits immensely from having a country that it can exploit for its riches, that it can use as a proxy in its provocations of Israel (so that any retaliation happens on Lebanese soil, and never in the Golan or Syria).
So, again, I ask “who does this really benefit?” The answers are OBVIOUS. It’s not rocket science, folks. Don’t go out there throwing conspiracy theories that make absolutely no logical or rational sense.
The Zionist, How perfectly for you to pop up and show up Today
Do you know Israel is a suspect, Just as Syria, though I feel Syria had more of an involvement than Israel – Rest assured, the international community still has its doubts.
Pingback: Global Voices Online » Lebanon: MP Antoine Ghanem Assassinated
Lira & BV,
It made sense to put “lover”‘s comment because I know a lot of people in the opposition who think the same way.
We might find it crude, we might disbelieve it, but it pretty much sums up much of what the opposition thinks..
Go back to the 1970s, whenever the Lebanese “trying” to resolve their problems; a kidnapping, a killing, a checkpoint killing anyone who does not belong to its own religion, a bombing ,…or an assassination of that politician who is “trying” to consolidate the Lebanese! Everyone knows that it was Syria!
Syria says something and does the opposite!!! But we will not bow, we will not kneel down! God Bless LEBANON!
Duh! The Syrians of course killed him if you’re M14.
And the Israelis killed him if you’re M8.
Either way you get to add a new picture to your “martyr gallery”. Hope you can make it fit.
It’s not the time to think who did it, it’s the time to think of what to do. I suggest that all 14th of april peeps descend to the parliament and sleep there like they did a while ago. This way it’ll be much safer for all.
The following headlines are fictitious and very very very far from reality:
Al-Manar: “Breaking News! Walid Jumblat have killed again, his new victim is Antoine Ghanem. Walid the murderer, why is he a murderer? because he is against us. No further explanation is needed”
Tishreen Newspaper: “Breaking News: Antoine Ghanem committed suicide by blowing himself up in a desperate attack to support the ongoing campaign against syria.”
NBN: “Anchor Sawsan Safa Darwish: FINALLY , FINALLY , life is so much better now. I officially declare LIVE ON TV that I will su** off anyone who would kill Ahmed FatFat. (Pardon my French).”
Later that day:
NBN: “Sawsan darwish was fired due to her outrageous comments on the death of our brother, our compatriot Antione Ghanem, may he rest in peace, we will always protect his memory”.
Next Day:
NBN: “Sawsan darwish is rehired due to lack of of reporters that work in a non biased way”
Next Weak:
A compromise president is elected. In the hope that somebody from March 14 would stay alive.
Lessons from Lebaonon:
Fighting extremism with extremism doesn’t work.
Coexistance doesn’t work.
Dialogue doesn’t work.
Foreign help doesn’t work.
War doesn’t work
Nothing works in this country. Allah 7tar minna.
BV, according to ur last post http://thebadvilbel.blogspot.com/2007/09/march14-accepts-berris-initiative-and.html
M14 accepted the “initiative”, i guess you dont consider that a step to reconciliation.
I think it’s funny, the way you reject and ridicule the reason that the person quoted used, even though it’s based on the analyses of the lebanese circumstances in general, and at the same time are willing to blindly accusing syria, whom until this point and with over a dozen assassination attempt appears to be innocent, with no evidence at all involving it. I’m not defending syria, i’m just saying that you need to base your way of thinking on real reasoning, and real reasoning is based on facts and evidence and not the political accusations used to enforce ones positions as “SECT PROTECTOR”.
With that being said, i think what happened today was a real atrocity, committed by savages. Who can stoop so low and assassinate a 64 year old man. I’m sorry for the family
Anonmous says:Duh! The Syrians of course killed him if you’re M14.
And the Israelis killed him if you’re M8.
Uhm. No. This is not a relativistic fantasy universe. It is not a matter of perception. One SPECIFIC group killed Ghanem, whether we know who it is or not.
And in every properly functioning brain, that uses logical and scientific thinking, it is not hard to follow the trail of who this benefits the most.
I simply refuse to equate rational thinking with fantasy-laced conspiracy theories. Your comment is outright insulting. Just because each side believes their version of the story doesn’t mean both versions are valid in any way. One version is the TRUTH, and can be attained by using rational thinking, scientific method, and common sense. The other is bullshit, and is attained by refusing to see all the indicators, refusing to use one’s brain, and refusing to abide by the laws of logic and rationality.
Just because I believe the earth is flat, and i repeat it over and over and argue with you about it over and over, does not make my side of the story valid. It does not make the earth flat and it does not allow me to vindicate my opinion in any way. In the face of mounting evidence and scientific proof that the earth is indeed round, my refusal to accept that fact, and my insistence on pointing at some fantastically irrational explanation to justify my point does not make my points any more valid. It simply would indicate that I was a close-minded idiot who refuses to accept the truth.
I have news for you, folks: The earth is NOT flat. March14 is not killing off it’s own MPs to further some US/Zionist plan to keep Lebanon unstable (which wouldn’t benefit the Israelis anyway). That simply MAKES NO SENSE.
Darko,
My blog entry at the time turned out to be false. See the update I added below. M14 exposed Berri’s bluff. As soon as they acted like they would accept his initiative, he got mad and pouty, and added a whole bunch of demands to his so-called “initiative”.
Secondly…No evidence??? Are you freaking kidding me? There are PILES of evidence so far, implicating Syrian intelligence, through Fath Al Islam and other proxies in countless of these assassinations. Again, just because you claim the earth is flat does not make it so. Last I checked Shaker Al Absi spent time in Syria, was then sent to Nahr Al bared where he magically took control of a faction that has been a Syrian Intelligence proxy since the 1980s, without anyone’s complaining. And you want me to believe he was an Israeli agent?
You also want me to believe that in all their glory, our Syrian brethren who by all accounts had a heavy presence in Lebanon for 30 years, never managed to catch a single Israeli agent, and that somehow all the assassinations that ensued happened without their knowledge whatsoever. You expect me to believe that a relatively small number of Israeli operatives did all this, while in a country infiltrated in every possible way by another country’s intelligence for 30 years? Without anyone ever noticing?
Like I said…use your brains people.
You can believe common sense, or you can believe that unicorns exist and that evil goblins from the underworld come out at night and plant bombs under people’s cars.
I choose to believe common sense and logic. If you guys want to live in a country of fantasy, unicorns, and defy the laws of physics and science, then by all means, let’s rename Lebanon to “Xanadu” or “The Land of Oz” and let’s stop any pretense and aspirations at being a modern, forward thinking people.
Eye for eye is the only way to stop assassination in Lebanon. In other words, it is a must to have equilibrium of terror. For instance, for Ghanem’s death, why not killing Mohamad Raad in returns, if he’s hiding in a cave, why not FMP Joubran Bassil?? This is the only language that Alawaite-Persian mobs would understand. There is no Rule of Law in Lebanon, therefore equilibrium of terror is a necessity and must. Otherwise, Nassrallah and his mobs will inherit Lebanese, sunni, druze and especially maronites while they’re still alive! If social evolution made Mount Lebanon inhabitants and Beirut sunnni more civilized and they won’t go killing themselves ; we should then hire Kurds, Iranians Moujaheidi Khaleg, Saudi, Yemenis etc. to kill March 8th mobs. To gain peace we need to win the war. We could no longer count on foreign pressure on Syria or some future war with Iran. We need to act, otherwise, we are screwed out of Lebanon and its history!
Common Sense and Logic, those are two of my favorite words. let’s use them, shall we.
1- you make sound as if Lebanon is only infiltrated by Syrian intelligence(witch i’m not denying). It’s as if the US and Israel are not working in the Lebanese Scene. Two fucking israeili reporters entered lebanon and left, for crying out loud, and you’re refusing the assumption that israel had anything to do with it.
2-Shaker alabsi being a syrian agent, and lets say he is, how do you explain him traveling through the country, from one camp to the other with nobody stopping him, and Fata7 al islam popped up in the last last year, you(M14) are accusing syria for over two year now. So what, you accuse and make up your mind about who’s guilty and then think about the evidence.
you want logic, here’s some of the M14 responses that i find very logical:
-After the assassination of MP tueini, an Islamic group issued a statement announcing their responsibility for the attack. in response M14 media says “the statement issued doesn’t not look like one that could be issued by an Islamic group (NOT TOO ISLAMIC)”
-In response to the question “Why didn’t you inform the army about the raid”, Ashraff riffi responds “we called the army intelligence but nobody answered” WTF
that’s how logical you people are. it’s very simple, stop thinking about what’s in the best interest of your sect and start thinking about what’s in the best interests of your country.
If Saad alhariri meet nassrallah tomorow, the shia and sunnis will love each other, and become best friends on the expense of the christians and druze.
Today, Jinblat and Ja3ja3 are best friends and so are their supporters, if they fight tomorrow , so will their people, same goes for Nassrallah and Aoun,
When Lebanese stop following Posters and Songs, that’s when we’ll have a truly democratic country
One more thing, knowing that Surêté générale at the Airport is controlled my Hizballah militia, March 14th leader should no longer travel through the Airport, they should travel through the sea or via Cyprus using Helicopters landing in Shiaa free zone in Lebanon. It is complicated and expensive, but it is effective due to the unusual circumstances.
“Shiaa free zone” great ideas, i can see it from now. Stores with “Leave your shiaa at the door Please” and “No Shiaa Allowed” signs. You are a genius we need more people like you “IN ISRAEL” maybe then we can get our land back
Antoine Ghanem, 64, was a possible candidate for the presidency in an election to replace the pro-Syrian Emil Lahoud. Next week, the Lebanese parliament convenes for the vote.
Badvilbel said,”M14 exposed Berri’s bluff. As soon as they acted like they would accept his initiative, he got mad and pouty, and added a whole bunch of demands to his so-called “initiative”.
Please provide evidence. What “demands” did Berri all of a sudden add?
Darko,
You’re kind of making my point for me. You just proceeded to tell me that no one picked up at Army Intelligence (Syrian dominated), that the Tueni perpetrator was non-islamist (that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be pro-syrian) and that Al Absi escaped with internal help (and pray tell, who still dominates the Army these days, after 30 years of pro-Syrian appointments?)
Don’t even get me started on the Israeli journalists. I am quite familiar with that story from start to finish and there absolutely nothing to fuss about there.
All this is entirely besides the point though. Sure Lebanon is infiltrated by Israeli agents, American agents, French agents, Syrian agents, Iranians and Saudis too. No one denies that.
But I am still not seeing the LOGIC of your argument. WHO STANDS TO BENEFIT from these assassinations? From an unstable Lebanon? That is the real question to ask yourself.
And please don’t accuse me of sectarianism. If you’ve read any of my ramblings here, or elsewhere, for the past 2 years, you’d know very well that I have ZERO tolerance for that closed-minded bigoted mindset. I could give a flying **** about the Maronites losing the presidency, the sunnis losing their prestige, or the Shia coming into power. As long as they are doing it for LEBANON the state. I’ve been preaching day and night about the need for loyalty to the STATE and its institutions and the RULE OF LAW, above all these other sectarian and tribal loyalties. Go do your homework.
As to Ali, who asked for proof about Berri’s demands. Here you go:
Read this:
Berri 1
And go watch footage of Berri’s interview on kalam al nass, the day after M14 “accepted” the initiative.
He initially claimed his initiative was that both sides COMPROMISE. That m14 should give in about the 2/3 quorum, and about an M14 president, and accept a “consensus” president (let’s remember that consensus really means that the opposition can veto anyone they dont like as not being a consensus candidate). In return, M8 would drop the demands for a unity government, and end the sit-in. Right?
Well here is Berri, the day after said “acceptance”:Berri said that the new president (which, of course, is the one they impose — after all, this is the purpose of his “initiative”), will bring with him his share of ministers in the new cabinet that would be formed after the election. Furthermore, Berri informed us, this cabinet (in which they would have veto power and maybe more) would proceed to review every decision made by the Seniora cabinet. And, echoing the recent statements by Hezbollah, Berri specified that one UNSC resolution in particular would be immediately trashed and that is UNSCR 1559.
now let’s review:
1. He wants to veto any candidate for presidency that’s not acceptable to the opposition. No compromise there, basically. he can keep vetoing until we end up with an empty chair (if Lahoud’s time runs out), or M8 get one of their guys in.
2. He wants a government with the opposition having their share of cabinets, and the old 1/3+1 formula to ensure them veto power. Again. Not much compromise here.
3. He wants to revisit 1559 and 1701. (This is a brand new demand that wasn’t mentioned before).
This “initiative” smacks (and always has, in my mind) of blackmail. “Do what i want..or else!”…and as soon as the other side looks like they might actually accept, then you ratchet up the price even more and add more demands. Typical blackmail approach.
Oh, and for the record, I think all this consensus claptrap is retarded. In case you guys have never actually seen how a Democracy works (and lord knows, it seems a lot of you have no concept of it): We elected the MPs so that they can go and elect the president (among other tasks).
Their job is to vote for whoever they want. There does not have to be a consensus candidate that’s pre-agreed upon. That is about as undemocratic as it can get, as a matter of fact. It pisses me off to no end when I hear Patriarch Sfeir rambling on about the need to agree on a president. No, sir, people don’t agree. That’s why they have elections. The very point of elections is to provide a mechanism for solving a situation where there is a disagreement. The only presidents who get elected by 100% agreement are dictators like Saddam, Bashar or Mubarak. In the democratic world, people get elected by 51%-49% sometimes. And you know what? That’s the RULE OF LAW. Yes. it means not everyone gets their way. Those 49% have to wait till the next electoral cycle and try again. That’s how it works. There is no way to please every single person, no matter what country in the world you live in.
So let the damn MPs go to parliament and let them vote for whoever they want, and let the guy with the most votes become president, and let’s as a people, hold him and the MPs that elected him accountable, next time around (next parliamentary elections). THAT is how democracy works. Not by having these idiotic politicians “agree” on some consensus guy that’s been bought and paid for somewhere between Damascus, Tehran, Paris and Washington.
The sooner you people understand this concept, the better off Lebanon might be.
I would ask all of you to re-read your comments, and really reflect on what you are really saying?
Are you saying that a Lebanese has been an accomplice in killing another Lebanese?
Are you saying a foreign (Syrian or other) has killed a Lebanese?
Are you saying, you would pitch in yourself, personally, in an attempt to flame the country by killing another Lebanese?
I think we should reflect on ourselves and truly prove to the world once more, that we choose life over death. That we choose the modernity and correct attitude as Lebanese, citizens primarily, and political second with patience and educated virtuous character.
Over here in Great Satanland, anyone who questions the society or the government is rewarded with social approval, and maybe even celebrity and wealth.
Not sure why Satan allows this, but maybe he is just not paying attention – as lazy as he is evil, perhaps. I don’t know. How could I?
Anyway, Bad Vibel has the quality that is associated with “liberals” and “radicals” over here in Great Satanland. He is not afraid to question his society, criticize it, and demand that it does better.
Since he lives in benighted Third Worldia, I think that means he is evil and wrong headed to do so.
Shame on you Bad Vibel, but I’d have to say, it is interesting to see a benighted Third Worldian challenge his own society rather than blame the One Who Causes All Suffering.
Interesting.
Very, very interesting.
Wrong and misguided of course.
But interesting somehow.
I’m a longtime reader and fan of this blog, but as an American citizen with no ties to Lebanon I’ve never felt it my perogative to discuss the internal politics of your country.
However, this latest news finally compels me to comment on the never-ending tragedy that is Lebanon.
How can a huge portion of the population tolerate the calculated elimination of its political leaders? I have watched the reaction as each “M14″ leader was murdered. The trend that has emerged is one of defiant action to defiant chatter to well, resignation.
This is understandable, given the conditions – the least of which, an opposition prone to conspiracy theories that defy even the most basic notions of logic and rationality. I am not privy to the mental processes of the Lebanese opposition but they (consp. theories) generally strike me as unsincere excuses for the opposition to wash their hands of these heinous crimes that just so happen to benefit them politically.
Why not choose to believe (or cynically espouse w/o belief) a conspiracy masterminded by your perceived enemies and use that as political cover while your side reaps the benefits of Syrian cunning..
Perhaps I am being cynical, but this is how the situation looks to an unbiased outsider (I’ve nothing to gain either way…)
So my question is, will M14 AND M8 continue to tolerate the murder of its national politicians all the way to the tragic end?
Randall,
I actually live in the US at the moment. But I am Lebanese, and grew up in that shithole we choose to call a country, even though we do not deserve it.
Rommel,
You’re surprised that a huge portion of the population tolerates assassinations? Have you been reading the comments here for a while? How can you be surprised when you see the mindset of so many naysayers, who insist on their brainwashed view of the world, where everything is blamed on the Great Satan? I mean, in this very thread, just look at Ali and Darko’s comments. There are people who simply refuse to admit to what their own eyes tell them, for fear of having to back down, or admit they were ever wrong, to the point of believing in fantastical theories that make absolutely no sense from a logical or rational standpoint.
And you’re surprised?
To be fair, I see the same closed-mindedness here in the US. Hardcore liberals or hardcore conservatives, who will simply and stubbornly continue to parrot a long disproven theory or policy, rather than admit they were ever wrong.
It is amazing to me the lengths at which a human being (from any nationality really) is willing to go, rather than admit they were wrong, or that their system of beliefs was wrong. People who have forged an identity for decades around a certain system of belief would rather die than to live with the realization that their system of beliefs was based on a lie, or a faulty premise.
Some people would rather continue believing the earth is flat…because admitting they were wrong would somehow negate their entire lives.
To all FPM morons: What if Aoun or Camille or another of your stupid MPs was killed? Would you say that FPM killed them? You (FPM) people have no brains. You are a bunch of blood-thirsty animals. That’s why you don’t understand when people explain in a nice way. Why would Amine Gemayel kill his own son? You’re still trying to sell us this story – that it’s a conspiracy? Go f*** yourselves, all of you (FPM) pieces of sh**. Aoun (the devil) and his evil gang are taking Lebanon to hell. A crazy coward like him deserves a slap in the face to wake up and a life sentence in jail for being an accomplice to all these murders. Follow your devil to hell, you bastards.
Mustapha,
Can you include a link to the opposition blog you’re quoting from? I have been searching for such blogs for a long time, but simply can’t find them. It seems that all English blogs are March 14.
Thanks
pinpointing anyone to blame is a very illogical idea, there really can’t be any evidence to prove who’s done it without a word from the athourities….
If Lebanese sit down and continue to blame one person to another, there are going to be even more assissnations
I see a lot of reference here to people who might be promoting a flat earth theory as ‘conspiracy’ theorists but lets not forget that there was a time when the ‘earth was flat’ and if you had some other theory you were likely to be persecuted. In essence the ‘truth’ is little more than the popular belief at any given time. So if a story is told enough times by the popular media and the popular politicians around the world then it becomes the defacto truth and any nay sayers are declared conspiracy theorists. Just like democracy itself, popularity wins out. Call it pop culture. There are many standard tactics in the art of war that mankind has been using for years and years. Remember the basic training, divide and conquer, get your mutual enemies to kill each other. Remember that there are rarely two sides in any conflict. When you read about a war 50 years ago you get a totally different picture to reading about it at the time. Propaganda is and has always been a vital weapon. If you are looking for ‘facts’ look beyond the media or better still wait 50 years for the real truths to come out but never forget the basic rules of conflict.
Does anyone ever question that it could be Islamic extremists undertaking the assassinations, or is this too scary to contemplate?
Riemer and those interested,
The opposition comment was just a comment from someone on Beirut To The Beltway‘s last post.
This is sooooo sad. Lebanon can be so beautiful, but as long as the inhabitants are like cats and dogs chasing each other all the time….
I found this quote:
““Over the past year, Israelis have known war, destruction, the Winograd Commission, protests, and solidarity rallies. But the power of Israeli democracy has proven itself anew in succeeding to deal with the failures in democratic ways.
“A year has passed since the war, and during this year the economy has not only stabilized, but re-flourished. The destruction has been rehabilitated, and tourists have returned to the north. Life is back to normal.
“With regards to Lebanon, 2006 should have been a year of prosperity for the Lebanese people. Lebanon was preparing for plenty of tourists who were meant to come and enjoy the country’s beauty. But what happened to the country?
“Instead of financial prosperity, destruction occured, and its people harmed. No tourists came and no damage was fixed.
“The promises made to the Lebanese people were not kept. There is no democracy, and no freedom of expression. Lebanon is sinking. This beautiful land, the land of cedars, is being destroyed – the land that was supposed to be the pearl of the Middle East.””
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3451570,00.html
Interesting.
Pingback: aroundworldblog.com » Lebanon: MP Antoine Ghanem Assassinated
Pingback: Lebanon: MP Antoine Ghanem Assassinated « AROUND WORLD BLOG
Badvilbel,
Isn’t the idea of a consensus president that both sides find a candidate that can understand the concerns of both sides and act to work in a way that keeps the country together?
By saying yes to a consensus president it means that both sides will have to compromise on some of their issues. It does not mean the absence of issues. It is our differences after all that have brought us to this necessity. No? So Berri was only voicing the issues that matter to the opposition. M14 also has its own concerns, and the trick is to find someone whom both sides can trust.
I thought M14’s whole beef throughout was always and has been the Hariri Tribunal, which has now been forced into place. I did not know that they wish to be the executive arm of the UN and act to enforce UNC 1559. Is this their issue du jour right now? Isn’t this a point of contention between the parties which needs a review and rational analysis that will take a more neutral figure to assess?
Some in M14 will have none of this and want to enforce their own candidate and ultimately their own policies, and pretend the opposition and its concerns are of no consequence. Well, you can live in dreamland, but absence of some sort of compromise, everyone knows this will only lead to a worsening of the national paralysis that is suffocating the country. You know that will happen right? What then?
Pingback: Lebanon Loses Another MP : Outsider On The Inside
[...] unless of course the ‘world’s powers’ are happy with the status quo!
I wonder how many times “Lover” has been banned under how many different pseudonyms at how many blogs. But now, Mustapha, you have the distinction of actually featuring the bigoted propagandist troll. It took a while for AK to catch up to that craptrap but, yes, banned eventually comes up as the solution.
I’m a Lebanese Agnostic/Athiest who Independent in thinking. I praise the Opposition when they have done anything worthy of it, the same way I praise the Majority when they are worthy of it too.
I, Mr BadVibbel, do use my brain to think. You asked, what the hell does anyone other than Syria gain out of all of this. You’re simply asking for an answer but using the wrong question. The question should be, What has Syria recently achieved from these assasinations, if they had in fact been committing them?
My answer would be everything that’s negative. A bad reputation, further isolation, it’s allies are loosing out bad and wrath against the Syrians is very much at it’s peak among the Anti-Syrians.
Your answer is – Lebanons destablisation. Hardly an achievement. It would come in Syrias interest to destablise Lebanon when it and the West are making a concession of some sort. Syria would destablise Lebanon to claim it’s the only force able to protect it. That’s what happened the first time they came in, and the second time they came in. Who gave them the green light? Not Hezbollah, because Hezbollah fought the Syrians at first. It was America and – Israel.
Todays political situation is very very different. America and the West in general is nose-diving on Syria, dropping all it’s political bombs on it to further isolate and damage Syria’s political stand. Syria’s destablisation of Lebanon at this time is political suicide.
I ofcourse do not question the Syrian leadership or intelligence’s moral ideal bankrupcy in carrying out such a heinous crime. Far from it. But terrorism itself is defined by the inapropriate use of violence against non-combatants to reach a political end or goal. Syria is anything but reaching any goals of any sort through these crimes. This is an assesment, not a political stand. Creator of this blog, or dear writer of this article – as well as to Lira – I am not the oppositions spokesperson and not in any way affiliated with the opposition. I just see that this time they have a point. I believe Syria killed Rafiq Harriri – but not anyone after that.
Opinion remains opinion. It is the March 14 who are using propaganda, repitition and blackmail to force their opinion of Syria’s responsibility on everyone else. What else do you call political songs cursing the Syrian nation, educated politicians who refer to its leadership as an animal, to a political leader who calls all those whom do not elect M14 representatives – civilians or not – as conspirers to murder, as well as the automatic finger-pointing to the opposition and Syria (and now Iran – tomorrow maybe venezuela and after that Qatar) whenever a mosquito so much as bites an M14 MP.
In order to find the real truth, they need to take a step back. Nor me, and I hope nor the opposition, are doing the same mistake M14 is doing – which is the blame-game (maybe its too late for Michel Oun, but thats his problem), because playing the blame-game is to protect the true criminals. What I believe, and what I herd several Hezbollah MP’s say before, was that we may have an opinion to who might have killed any MP or journalist, but that opinion should always be a skeptical one – not an affirmative one. Not to later on launch whole campaigns, such as calling from the internation community to punish a country who might as well be innocent, based on a political opinion. That is unfair to our democracy itself. We should investigate. We should find out the truth. We shouldn’t blame then try finding the apriopriate ‘clues’, ‘evidence’ or ‘signs’.
This is my point of view. I quit religion because of my love and respect for life. The toll in human blood and souls that religion is accounted for drove me away from it. Because I love my fellow countrymen and hopefully never see a single one of them die in vein, I do not want any incident like this occuring. My personal opinion to the best way in doing this is to act professionally. It has worked in every country to date, it should work for Lebanon.
3eish Libnein
“Lover”: It’s simple. If you had half a brain, you would know who killed the Anti-Syrians. After all, they are ANTI-SYRIAN! Or is that too difficult for you to understand? You want us to believe your complicated “conspiracy” story? Go brainwash some followers of General Napolaoun. They’ll have no problem believing your fantasies.
Lol, ye okay buddy. Your problem my friend not mine. If forensic evidence and detective investigations are all not real and just ‘conspiracies’ then i’m sorry for using half my brain. It looks like the civilised world flips a coin to work out who commited a crime, right?
Some people have lightyears of growing up from retardation, it’s amazing.
Dear Mr. “Compromise” (ALI)
So you are saying because M14 are majority in the parliament, there must be compromise!
What if in the next election, the Syrian dogs (M8) have majority, would they compromise? Would Mr. “Divine Victory” share power? (Assuming he brought his finger down since the last speech!!!!)
The only way to move forward is to agree on an agenda for the presidency and for the government. Which I doubt it will happen with Mr. “Divine Victory”
Lebanese Patriot.
“Lover”: I apologize for the half-brain comment, it was a moment of frustration. We Lebanese have grown up on conspiracy theories. But please explain to me how M-14 or the Lebanese are conspiring to overthrow Aoun/HA by committing suicide, as is the theory presented by the opposition. Did Aoun not benefit from Pierre’s murder? Does that make sense to you? Would Amine Gemayel kill his own son, would Antoine Ghanem blow himself up? The only common denominator among all these killings and attempted murders is that the targets are ANTI-SYRIAN. It’s simple and yet people want us to believe that it’s a conspiracy by someone else. Who would the opposition accuse if one of them was killed, and would they sit quietly if SEVEN of them were killed methodically? Is the motive to reduce the majority to a minority? Is Aoun encouraging it by replacing the victims with people of hiw own? There is nothing more obvious than his complicity in all this. Again, my apologies for a moment of weakness – I admit that I use much less than half my brain on most occasions.
….with people of his own…
Lebanes Patriot:
Were you dead during 2005/06? Did you vanish off the face of the planet?
The Po-Syrians were in power when the Cedar Revolution started. Right? Then what happened? 50,000 people were demonstrating outside the Serail between February 27 and March 3. The PM resigned and government dissolved.
Then there were the M8 and M14 pact (remember, the one Michel 3oun was rejected in?), this was all a time of concessions, the ‘National Reconciliation’, all the pacts between the Christians and the Sunnis and Shias – or did you miss it all?
Ofcourse also the political and electoral compromise made throughout the elections. The compromise of a coalition government being formed. The compromise of electing Nabih Berri as speaker.
The Pro-Syrians gave up all power (except for Presidency because Emile Lahoud was too stuburn) and almost chose to come out weaker through almost controlled elections (due to the concessions – in some areas M8 candidates did not run for elections and vice versa).
Now look at the current political situation. The opposition mobilises roughly 1.5million Lebanese (not my figures – army, CNN, dailystar etc) into Riyadh Solh, Martyr Square and other public spaces for two weeks. The government is still in place. Every single initiative is dropped. For a year and a half, the government has not made a single effort to fix this problem. I place the fault on the government because – well – they are the GOVERNMENT. The responsibility for a set of political figures being elected comes with the responsibility of guaranteeing my countries common welfare etc. They are thr rulers. They call the shots.
They promised – tribunal for political settlement through national unity government. The tribunal was forced through and still – political impasse continues. Now they say President and then National Unity cabinet and reconciliation – anyone want to make a bet on whether the National Unity cabinet being created?
Annonymous:
Me, personally, and certainly not ALL members of the opposition are saying these people are killing each other. 3oun is going crazy I don’t know why. But so is Ahmed FatFat and alot of M14 guys. Both are using the killings – sadly – for personal political gains and by trying to use them as a weapon to weaken the ‘other side’.
What most opposition people are saying and what especially I believe is that it could be anyone. The Saudis, the Palestinians, the Syrians, Americans, Iranians, Israelis, Libyans, Iraqis, French or any other opportunists and certainly any other militia. Maybe those Islamist/Al-Qaida groups promising to make Lebanon a hell-pit. This might be their way of doing it. And Islamists have infiltrated the Lebanese – as shown by Fath Al-Islam’s recruit rates. Nearly 80% of Fath Al-Islam was Lebanese. Most of the rest Saudis.
Do you see my point now? It could be anyone taking advantage of the situation to fuel bitterness between Lebanese and cause a rift or civil war. It could and might well be some kind of Extremist Shia militia in Lebanon since everyone being killed is Christian and Sunni (even though there are some Shi’as part of M14 never targetted yet).
To point fingers and make conspiracy theories is wrong. 3oun is wrong and M14 is wrong and anyone else who blames instead of calls for a thorough investigation is wrong. The blame-game makes the true murderers escape with the crime because all the media attention is centred on that particular convict (i.e. Syria).
Only yesterday they captured that Israeli guy in Lebanon – his photo and his friends gun next to a murder scene. His friend also happens to be a Social Security guy (I think a policeman – I don’t understand Arabic Jargon). If he was or was not a spy doesn’t matter. But it shows how easy it is for any foreigner to infiltrate the security institutions in this country, carry out a crime and maybe get away with it. If this guy turns out to be a curious Israeli citizen who wants to see Lebanon, then it’s a bigger embaressment. If a civilian infiltrated the security establishment, imagine what a country is capable of doing.
This is my argument. To find out the truth, you don’t blame until you uncovered the game.
Dear MR. Lover;
I was around during 2005/2006. I was enjoying the “Divine Victory”. I tried to use Google Earth to see Hizbo in Tel Aviv. But I think the resolution was not that clear. So, I could not see them over there.
You mentioned 50,000 ppl demonstrated and the PM resigned. Good for him (that Syrian bastard). From where did you get the figure 50,000? Was it from Al-Manar or Al-Akhbar????
Yes I remember the pact that Michel Aoun was rejected from. Is it because he just wanted to be the boss? And it will be just him and no one else. Don’t open the issue of Michel Aoun in here. He is the most messed up person Lebanon saw in the history of Lebanon.
I never missed any pact. But you know things sometimes change. In any country, political alliance can happen for election purposes. And then they may change with time. That DOES NOT MEANS that M14 are traitors!!!!
At the time of compromises, M14 did some mistakes. First by allow that Syrian mailbox to be the speaker and by allowing that dog to be in the presidential palace.
The Pro-Syrians did not give up any powers. The powers were taken from them. You remember Bashar’s smartest move (assassination of Mr. HARIRI).
The opposition mobilized 1.5 millions “Lebanese” according to CNN! Come on man. Give me a break. Even Al Manar said 1.0 million.
Saniora’s Government is trying to make things happen. We have some resigned ministers that were trying to blackmail the government to make their way or no way. Therefore they resigned. The government is affected by many factors some of which are the Iranian militia and the Syrian traitors.
For you own records, the tribunal was not done because of M8 is trying to be nice. It is done the wrong way, because M8, Syrian/Iranian traitors, did try every single trick they can do to not let it pass.
And with respect to the presidency and the new government, M14 is saying that we agree on a political program and then presidency and then a government that will obey the agreed political program. Otherwise, M14 will exercise their right by electing a president themselves as the majority in the parliament, which is the definition of democracy.
You mentioned that M14 is using the assassination of its members for political gain. What in the hell is that messed up logic that you are talking about?
Mr. Al Absi who was in a Syrian prison (Syria!) created Fateh AL Islam. And then magically released and then magically transferred to Ahmad Jibril’s camp (Syrian Camp) and then Soheiya (another Syrian training camp). And then he did what he did (Syrian plan).
Mr. Lover, please try to read some other newspapers other than Al-Manar, Al-Akhbar, and for sure the infamous Tayyar, so you can still have a minimum logic in your head before it is too late.
Since Mr. Hariri’s assassination, every single assassination is against an ANTI SYRIAN. Does this point somewhere? Do you think that Israel wants to kill every single anti Syrian in Lebanon?
Lebanese Patriot
“Mr. Lover, please try to read some other newspapers other than Al-Manar, Al-Akhbar, and for sure the infamous Tayyar, so you can still have a minimum logic in your head before it is too late.”
Sorry, I seriously thought beirutsprings was an pro-M14 site. I probably visit more pro-M14 sites and news sources than pro-M8 and moreso than you.
Michaeltotten.com, yalibnan.com, alistiklal05.com, beirutsprings.com, beirutbeltway.com, Sky and so on. I don’t need to justify myself. The very fact i’m here on this site and participating by having this very convo with you is enough evidence. You don’t need to insult me. There is always a way to ask me politely, because I sure don’t remember insulting you.
My whole point in the latest post dedicated to you was to prove what you said was wrong. I don’t care what you make of the facts that happened (mistakes, stupidness and other opinions), I was merely pointing out the facts, the same facts and truth you denied in your previous post. No more no less.
“Do you think that Israel wants to kill every single anti Syrian in Lebanon?”
Well they seem so god damn keen on kidnapping half og Hamas’s parliamentarian (freely and democratically elected) as well as most of the cabinet and the house speaker – and numerously tried to assasinate political leaders (and at times succeeded).
I’m starting to think you must’ve fell in some kind of devestating coma and missed a whole chunk of history. I do urge you to catch up.
Lebanese Patriot EXCLUSIVE:
I also failed to mention that I gather my information from independent sources, and visit independent as well as innocent blogs.
“For those of you that haven’t heard yet, Lebanon’s Prime Minister just resigned and dissolved his cabinent. The demonstration earlier today was tense…press estimates are around 50,000″
This was from a blogger called andy, an American citizen studying at AUB, and happened to be in the country (ofcourse) at the time of the Cedar Revolution – and decided to record the events on his blog.
It is a spectacular timeline of the events that occurred during the period of February and April 2005 – free from political bigortry and censorship due to political affiliation.
http://andybeirutblog.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_archive.html
Lebanese Patriot:
I have to say that I agree with every emphatic word you said in regards to Aoun, M-14, and M-8. You are right on the money. I couldn’t have expressed the Lebanese political predicament any better. Well done for that thoughtful entry, bro! The next two months will be very interesting, especially since the rumors that the opposition have been training with weapons. It goes to show that Aoun is a man of war, not peace.
Lover,
You started in insulting me by saying that:
“Were you dead during 2005/06? Did you vanish off the face of the planet?”
During the worst war that happened on our beloved country, you are accusing me of not being there? Come on man! During the worst assassination that happened in Lebanon, you are accusing me of not being there! (I am not saying that Hariri is more important than any other Lebanese, but I am saying that the assassination for Mr. Hariri has shaken the whole region.)
Let’s be clear about one thing in here. I do not read M8 publications. I do read international publications and M14 publications. I am not going to waste my time in M8 propaganda. (That does not mean that M14 publications do not have propaganda… But I like that type of propaganda)
You are saying that Israel assassinated and kidnapped Hamas members and leaders. I do not disagree with you. That was done to its own benefit. That does not mean it is not a crime. That is not the situation in Lebanon. Ex: if Mr. “Divine Victory” is assassinated, people will point to Israel. That is the normal reaction that people have. But I doubt that Syria will allow any body to be assassinated in Lebanon other than on their own hands (trade mark!)
But, if you look at Lebanese situation, all f the assassinated, since Mr. Hariri ‘s assassination, were towards anti Syrians leaders. All of the facts point toward Mr. Bashar and his gangs in Lebanon. And yet, we hear from the “opposition” and their smart followers that we have to be open-minded and we have to look at things from all the angles! We have to have the big image that just M8 leaders and followers have and none of the M14 leaders and followers has. That is really sickining! If mighty Bashar himself hears you saying that we have to look at the whole picture and not point to Syria, he will be laughing (not on Television!- but you never know).
Mr. Lover, please note that all of the actions of M14 are constitutional. However, all of the actions/plans of the “M8” are NOT constitutional. They are not equal. For that reason, I cannot look at them at the same level. Should you want me to elaborate on that, I will be more than happy to do so.
And by the way Mr Lover, bloggers are not news sources.
Lebanese Patriot
“I gather my information from independent sources, and visit independent as well as innocent blogs.”
Where in this sentence do you see the word news-source? I said independent blogs. For me, ordinary people who happen to be living at the time in the place make a better information source than any other news source.
Also, it is very unfair to say that M8 people are not equal. I’m sure Michel Aoun was equal when he attacked the Syrians and Hezbollah was equal when they attacked Syria/Israel – depending on what you believe. What makes them less equal now. Or less equal from the start.
Also if you notice, a short time after Hezbollah hostility to Syria and its allies in Lebanon ceased, it transformed into a terrorist group in the US. You, as a Lebanese person, should be offended when anyone tries cursing your fellow compatriots. At least think of the brave martyrs who gave their blood and souls for a pure and rightful cause – forget the political leaders and the divine victory guy.
Thank You
http://www.slickblog.wordpress.com
My friend Mr. Lover,
I never meant it in any way that M8 are inferior or less equal.
All Lebanese are equal. Every single blood of any Lebanese is sacred to me.
M8 and M14 are not fighting for the same cause. they are not seeking the same goals. M14 is seeking independent sovereign Lebanon. M8 wants Lebanon part of Iranian/Syrian alliance at any cost. Even if the cost would be the destruction of Lebanon. M8 wants to bring back the Syrian influence at the same level before 2005 at any cost.
M8 will try to show their supporters that it is constitutional what they are doing or it is for sake of reform that this has to be done.
But if you look for the main reason of all: the Hariri tribunal….
Hizbo lost a huge part of the Lebanese population when, after the Hariri assassination, they went to downtown Beirut carrying the flag of the only suspect in that murder!!!! with a “Thank you” note on it.
As I said, we are not fighting for the same reason.
Lebanese Patriot