Scathing Saudi Article Blasts Syria’s Lebanon Meddling
The Saudi Okaz newspaper wrote what must be the hardest hitting Saudi criticism of Syria in the history of their mutual relationship, marking a new low in their deteriorating relation.
No smiles between Assad and Abdullah
The article starts with the question many Lebanese are asking:
هل سوريا هي العقدة والحل معاً؟ ما هو الوضع الأفضل للبنان أن يكون مستقلاً عن سوريا ومهدداً في امنه ومعاشه ام يكون تابعاً لها فيحظى بالهدوء، ولو كان خادعاً؟
Translation (mine)
Is Syria the problem and the solution at the same time? What is better for Lebanon: To be independent from Syria and threatened in its security and livelihood, or to be a Syrian lackey and win an artificial peace?
Read the entire thing then come back and tell me what you think:
Is it time for Syria to be denounced loudly and publicly by powerful Arab allies, or is this Saudi tirade an unnecessary emotional outburst that could ultimately hurt the Lebanese?
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Hello, my name is Mustapha and I blog in The Beirut Spring about Lebanese society and politics. I started in February 2005 after the killing of P.M. Rafik Hariri.
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Your mot recent post just proved the undeniable meddling of the US in Lebanese politics, and then you follow it with the US’s biggest lackey in the region, one of the most undemocratic, autocratic, misogynic, human rights-denying regimes on earth today, calling Syria out for meddling in Lebanon. Let’s be real here. Cognitive dissonance does not even begin to describe March 14th and their patrons today.
“the most undemocratic, autocratic, misogynic, human rights-denying regimes on earth today,”
Are you talking about Iran 3allouch?
This comes as no surprise, following Farouk Sharaa’ comments about Saudi Arabia the other day.
I’d like to take a step back from BOTH sides here (for ali). We shouldn’t have to have patrons from either Syria OR the US or Saudi Arabia.
Having said that, at least the US “meddling” is speaking in favor of our constitution, upholding the law, and supporting our legitimate government. Who is Syria patronizing? Terror groups and private militias.
I more than welcome Syria to throw its support behind the Lebanese STATE, and its constitution and institutions any day (as opposed to constantly having the constitution amended, as they did for Lahoud and now pushing for Suleiman).
And in the end, I welcome any country’s support to my sovereign state, but we, as Lebanese reserve the right to make our decisions. Support is one thing, patronage and slavery is another altogether.
I read the article and it sounded like the Saudi took off their gloves! They are ready to fight because “kissing the cheeks” (boss al-liha) did not and will never work with the Syrian mafia regime!
Ali above mentioned the “biggest lackey in the region, one of the most undemocratic, autocratic, misogynic, human rights-denying regimes on earth today,…” Is he talking about Syria or Iran? Syria who killed 40,000 of its own people in Hama? Or Iran who can’t have enough fuel for its people?
…it sounded like the Saudi took off their gloves!
Ok now I’m really scared, GK and Steve.
What the hell are they going to do, with or without the gloves? Go to the Arab League or have Saniora write a article critical of Syria?
Seriously guys, we have heard the Saudis are “mad” a zillion times. It usually means they give money to the offender to go away. Screw al-Saud!
BV,
Meddling is meddling, whether you bring pressure to bear in support or against, it is putting your nose where it does not belong. Who is the US, or any other country, to tell us what to do with our constitution? Is it not up to us to keep as is or amend? What if we deem it necessary to amend the constitution to find a compromise to break a stalemate? Please don’t tell me you believe the crap about the US sincerely caring about our (confessional) constitution or the rule of law, and the legitimacy or illegitimacy of our government. Seriously now….
Agree, Ali. You must have not read my comment the way it was intended.
I do not want ANYONE telling me what to do with my constitution.
But i do appreciate others who support law and order more so than I appreciate those who terrorize me. If that makes sense.
There’s a difference between me APPRECIATING them, and me obeying their every whim.
And no, I do not believe the US sincerely cares about us or about anyone else but themselves. That’s exactly how it works. It is time WE started acting that way too , i.e. caring only about OURSELVES, the Lebanese, and not the Palestinian cause, or the Iranian revolution, or the Golan, or the occupied territories (the list goes on…)
How about that for a start?
BV,
You and I have argued before and there is not point in rehashing the obvious.
Suffice it to say that I appreciate nothing about the successive US administrations and their intervention/aggression in the ME. They have pushed for belligerent policies that have brought us nothing but autocracy, death and misery for decades now. Looking at their track record, especially of late, I would run away from them as far as I can.
Conversely, you have every right to slam and disparage Syria for its crimes in Lebanon. I will not defend them. I have only stated that we need to see evidence of their alleged role in the latest crimes/assassinations before passing judgment, which the March 14th find conveniently quick to do.
Allah Y3eennnna 3allah Halfetneh ……
Haram ya shabeb , walla haram hal ballad
Hey Ali,
I don’t disagree, but your statement strikes me as a bit of a double standard. Howcome you’re not asking to see evidence of the US’s crimes? You’re just willing to give the Syrians the benefit of the doubt until you see EVIDENCE (of which there is PLENTY, i have to say), and yet you say nothing about asking for evidence eidence the US alleged crimes in the region. I’m not saying there aren’t, but the fact that you don’t seem to be asking for any evidence before you pass judgement on the US is very telling about your views. Typical “let’s blame the US and the Zionists for everything (without a shred of evidence needed), but let’s give Syria and Hezbollah all the benefit of the doubt. You’re being disingenious, and you know it.
For every piece of evidence you find me about the US’s guilt, I will show you about 5 pieces of evidence incriminating Syria or Hezbollah or Iran. How’s that?
Very strange VP-
The US has never hidden its military and monetary support for Israel and its blanket diplomatic cover in the UN and the world.
It was the US who resisted a cease-fire, nay actively PUSHED for a continuation, of the last July war that was ravishing your country and killing over a thousand Lebanese civilians, while at the same time conceding that they had concurrently sent mega-ton and cluster bombs to Israel to use in that same war (not that any of the hardware or munitions used were not already supplied by them to begin with, but this is to add insult to injury). Do they have to send their own F18s to do the bombing to show their intent and purpose? Does it have to be their own drones that rained down death and destruction against ambulances and fleeing civilians from the sky?
During over a 20 year occupation of Lebanon, they vetoed dozens of resolutions condemning Israel for its criminal acts and occupation of the South while at the same time arming it to the teeth. Do they have to be the sadistic jailers at the Khiam prison for you to see evidence of their role and participation? These are the same people who have so much respect for the UN and international law pushing and shoving resolutions such as 1559 and the Hariri tribunal. Their benevolence knows no bounds.
Look VP-I am not contesting Syria’s past crimes in Lebanon. We can all agree on those, and hopefully on many in the March 14th leaders, now turned righteous and patriotic, who aided and abetted them at the time. I only asked that we see evidence of the latest series of assassinations and bombings that have taken place in a highly charged and politicized environment. Every time a bombing took place more pressure is brought to bear on Syria internationally and locally. Are they that stupid? Maybe. But I’d like to see what evidence we have. I am not exonerating them, but many people are suspicious of the bombings’ timing.Is it too much to ask to see the evidence? Why are you against that, and willing to believe any and every allegation and accusation against them? Again, if the evidence is merely political, then we can point the finger many places, including at the March 14th itself, and certainly the US and Israel, because they seemed in the best possible position to exploit it and turn it to their benefit. But I will not accuse them based on a political opinion, why are you willing to do that with Syria?
And, one last thing, please do not tell me anymore that you want me to provide “evidence” of Israeli crimes every time I mention them. Either you’ve been missing on a different planet in the last few decades, and you’re just trying to be insulting.
Off the subject. Moustapha did you watch the first episode of “Gods Warriors” on CNN (Christian Amanpour). Its very interesting and extremely related (indirectly/directly)to the conflicts and topics discussed on your blog. Lets see what the beirutspringers have to say about it.
Forget it BV,
This kind of silly argument is just too predictable:
Guy sounds reasonable, you and guy agree on one point, guy is now you “friend” and proceeds to shove down your throat his Israel obsession and US=Syria crap etc
BV/JW, Ali et al
If you think about, it’s not possible to make an hollywood-esque movie about all those turmoils (US,Syria,Israel,Saudi,Iran,[put your favorite country here], and yes - Lebanon).
We can’t have a movie with no “heroes”, no “good guys”, only criminals (active and retired) and dumb (inactive) sidekicks.
But even in this sad condition, I’m with BV in his “quest” of upholding the damn constitution and making it prevail.
It can be an (over) abused piece of used toilet paper, but I would like to shove the face of the “15 mins” guy with it (in particular with a real used toilet paper)
Otherwise, we should really change it’s text:
1) Do as you please.
2) If in doubt, check paragraph one.
At least this way we can say that everyone is under the “law”… what a joke it became.
Ali your talk is an insult to freedom of speech.
I sometimes come to wish that the US treats the arabs just like they treat each others and their own people. They should have burned Baghdad and burned the houses of each insurgent with him and his family inside and the whole neighborhood if necessary (just like Hama in the old days of your dear Hafez al Assad and the Gaz bombs dropped by your hero Saddam Hussein on his own people). They should be assassinating people in Iran left and right, anyone who is against the US just like the syrians and Irani are doing in Lebanon, Palestine and in their OWN countries.
But being human and merciful always prevail and the regimes you are defending has never and will never be accepted on this Earth.
The devils advocate is a devil himself.
I don’t understand why the US giving aid to a country of its choice (Israel) is a CRIME. It isn’t illegal. Anyone can give money to anyone they want. You can choose to give money to charity A and not charity B, no? That is not a crime.
It’s unfair. Sure. You don’t like it. Sure. But it’s still not a crime.
On the other hand, blowing people up IS a crime.
When was the last time an American blew himself up on the Corniche? Yeah…Didn’t think so.
You’re right Josey, this kind of argument is useless. They always claim to be objective, then proceed to disingenously throw down their double standards.
There is absolutely no way you can equate exercising one’s lawful right to provide aid this or that country, to terrorism, assassinations, etc. One of them is legal, the other isn’t.
Ok guys you win.
Syria is the worst criminal regime the world has ever known, and the two nuclear chums cutting the area and its people into pieces are just “human and merciful” innocents whose graces we do not deserve.
It is Syria and Syria only. No one else exists in our world except Syria and what it has done to some of the Lebanese. No other crimes compare with Syria’s crimes. No other oppression matches Syria’s. Besides Syria, no other discussions are permitted. They would just be just “silly” and “predictable” arguments.
And I am the one obsessed with Israel.
Heh. Don’t even try to pull that. I think I made it clear that I don’t consider Syria to be the only criminal here.
Moving on…
“Off the subject. Moustapha did you watch the first episode of “Gods Warriors” on CNN (Christian Amanpour). Its very interesting and extremely related (indirectly/directly)to the conflicts and topics discussed on your blog. Lets see what the beirutspringers have to say about it.”
I agree. It is very interesting and very educational too.
I also seen episode two and agree with your assessment again.
I am waiting to see episode three tonight and something tells me I will have to agree with you once more.
BV- your arguments are absurd. Period.
Arming, financing, protecting and covering for a criminal and a thug is not a crime? How about aiding and abetting, if not outright hiring? By your argument then it is “fair” but not criminal for Syria to arm and finance the Fath-il-Islam (since most of you are convinced that that’s what is happening). No?
Funny, the US itself thinks differently. Even if you simply protest against the Sanyoura gov’t is a punishable crime in the US’s eyes.
But hey, since they get to formulate the laws they get to choose what is a crime and what is not. So blowing yourself up at the Corniche is a crime, but dropping a 5 ton bomb on a building is “fair” game.
Ok. Let’s move on…
Ali, I see where you’re going - and it does not hold (much) water. Facts:
A.1) Usa gives Israel ammo and bombs.
A.2) Israel bombs (lots of) things in Lebanon.
A.3) Usa try to avoid diplomatic problems for Israel.
B.1) Syria&Iran “donates” ammo and bombs to Hizb and minor groups.
B.2) Those groups cause all sorts of problems (el-bared, unifil bombed, tent city, divine wars, etc)
B.3) Syria&Iran give political cover to any action made by those groups.
Are all the same ?
No. While I’m the first to be hellbent on the “cover” the americans did proportionate to Israel in the divine war (by the way, how come did it started ?), they can donate their stuff to any STATE they want (we’re not dealing with something like the “contras” here). Again, the cluster bombs are american, but the signature that signed the bombing order isn’t - this and others crimes are on the israeli STATE account.
On the other hand, hezb&friends are illegal armed militias, that operate AGAINST their STATE. How do you think syria would react if “the lebanese STATE” were arming and cheering groups against it’s government ? with a “let’s talk and resolve the issue like friends” ?
Surprise Quiz:
On the expression “Koulluna Lilwatan”, for you, personally, what means “Watan” ?
a) syria
b) iran
c) usa
d) The Lebanese STATE, it’s constitution and it’s laws.
Ps- When you see Hassan again, tell him to kidnap some syrian border soldiers in order to free some lebs jailed there… it worked last time, right ?
Exactly:
Providing aid or weapons to a legitimate government or a state (as recognized by the UN) is one thing, providing weapons to illegal militias or terrorist groups is another altogether.
I would be applauding if Iran and Syria were giving weapons to the Lebanese army. We need all the weapons we can get both to defend out country from Israel (for instance) or from terrorists like Fath Al Islam.
Arming the police is one thing, arming criminals is another altogether. You cannot compare selling weapons to, say, the New York Police department, to arming the mafia or a gang in New York. Not at all the same thing.
My-new-movie-
We’ll keep spinning our wheels and simply waste our time if we can’t even get some of the most elementary outlines agreed upon. Or maybe that’s what we’re fighting and arguing about ultimately, in which case I see little hope on coming to terms about anything.
Just because a state is that, it does not mean it is not capable of terrorism. In fact, the biggest terrorists in history who have perpetrated the most heinous crimes have been none other than “official” governments. So just because Israel is a state, it does not exonerate the US from the responsibility of what Israel does with the arms it, the US, gives it. There is no logical, moral or ethical argument you can draw where one party keeps giving another criminal party, regardless of the latter’s status and nature, the means to keep perpetrating its crimes and not become implicated in the crime itself.
It reminds me of the great moral drawn by no other than St Augustine some 1500 years ago of the hypocrisy and inconsistencies of those who give “states” and “emperors” a free pass by recounting this parable:
“A fitting and true response was once given to Alexander the Great by an apprehended pirate. When asked by the king what he thought he was doing by infesting the sea, he replied with noble insolence, “What do you think you are doing by infesting the whole world? Because I do it with one puny boat, I am called a pirate; because you do it with a great fleet, you are called an emperor.”
So give the suicide bomber at the Corniche an F18 and a mega-ton bomb and I guarantee you he won’t blow himself up; he’ll just drop the bomb and kill that many more without jeopardizing his own life, and return to do it again and again.
As for the Hezb, if it weren’t for them there would be no state. You’d have half of the country occupied by Israel and half by Syria until Kingdom come. Where was the “State” when Hezb started reclaiming its land and paid the dear price for it? Where was your UN-respecting “I-swear-I –am-innocent-I-am-only-arming-and financing-and-protecting-and-passing-intelligence-to-the-state-occupying-you-killing-you-torturing-you-humiliating-you-evicting-you-but-God-is-my-witness-I-am-innocent” US? You have Hezb because of the crimes of States you are trying to defend, just because they are states. No Israeli Occupation of Lebanon and US support of it, no rationale for the Hezb. It is as simple as that. You bemoan the symptoms and your body is infested with disease, but you can’t see it.
Ali,
You’re being philosophical with your arguement: “Because I do it with one puny boat, I am called a pirate; because you do it with a great fleet, you are called an emperor.” Yes, but one is an official state and the other is a rogue outfit. An official government can in theory be thrown out of government, a militia is not government adhering to the rule of law. We can go on for ever with these arguements and counter arguements.
So you ask “Where was the “State” when Hezb started reclaiming its land and paid the dear price for it?” Did you ever ask yourself why the Lebanese Army was never allowed into the south until recently; allowed into the south to monitor the border with Israel? Could it be perhaps that certain groups want to monopolise the resistance for political gain? maybe?
Ali,
Without Hezb there’d be no state?
Where was Hezb when Syria occupied half of Lebanon?
I am grateful for their resistance to Israel in the South. No question.
But you can’t pick which invaders you fight and which ones you turn an eye to. Once again, you’re being disingenious with your double standards. Had Hezbollah fought to get the Syrians AND Israelis out, I’d be inclined to believe your rhetoric. But the fact that they conveniently choose which invader to fight and which invader to collaborate with makes them open to scrutiny. They are much collaborators as the SLA was, by your standards. Resistance my ass.
ali,
in the early 90s, right after ta’if, it was decided (by the syrian occupiers & their local allies) that hizbullah would take full responsibility for the liberation of the south and that the army would have nothing to do with it.
so, all the way until 2000, even if some army commander had wanted to fight the israelis - he was prohibited because hizbullah had the “sole right” to the resistance.
and then hizbullah converted that into “we are the only ones who can defend lebanon” …
and the rest, as they say, is history.
ali,
can I ask you, why is Israel the ONLY enemy according to you? It is true, Israel is one of our bloodiest most inhuman enemies, but we have more than one enemy.
I think what angers most, is that you persist in seeing Israel as the only one.
Where were the hizaballh fighters during the narh-el bared war, why were they not enlisted in their country’s army fighting ALL of Lebanon’s wars.Do shabab el hizb not realise the country extends from North to South, and as strong fighting men, they are needed by their army as Lebanese fighters, instead of as Iranian Religous lackies only allowed to fight the one front?
As for that other enemy,the murdering Syrian Regime, how would you like if they had killed one of your leaders, and we went about thanking them the next day? How would you like it if in the middle of your mourning, we had a rally telling them that we stood by them and against you, and that your opinion mattered nothing in our decsion? Well Ali, this is how the rest of the country felt.
By the way, I like how in all your anwsers, you avoided crisizing Iran or decribing the Persian state as one of the foregin states (amongst many)that interferes in our country. I say that America, Iran, Saudia, France, Syira etc etc are all interfering for their own objectives. Can you at least admit that the Persians are the same as the rest and hence part of the issue?