The Lebanese Government is calling for international help after the killing of UNIFIL soldiers.
After a special cabinet meeting, the Lebanese government appealed for outside help to prevent the country and the region from spiraling out of control.
So let me get this straight: We need Help to protect the UNIFIL, whose initial mission, after much fanfare about how “beefed up” it was, is to help us keep the peace. In other words, do we need help for those who are helping us?
Which leads to this other question: In the event of future trouble, who will help those helping those who are helping us?
Hello, my name is Mustapha and I've been blogging about Lebanese society, business and politics since February 2005.
I’m afraid the biggest problem of the Lebanese is this mentality that we are helpless and that we need others to do our work for us.
I believe most of the issues that have been allowed to happen in Lebanon, ever since the 60s, are indirectly related to this mentality.
Lebanon needs to learn once and for all that nobody else can do your job for you. If you want something done right, if you want a functional, stable, peaceful country, you have to build it yourself.
I agree with Bad Vilbel, the government is showing weakness.
Stef, BV, and Kheir
I agree with all of you, this attitude sucks and will prevent any progress.
From 69 on, I keep hearing from the gvmnt AND people “what can we do?” (0ther than get screwed by the Arabs and the world)
All gvmnts, from Saniora going back Charles Helou, should go kill themselves. People, if they want change, need to drop this mentality which keeps propping up these gvmnts.
[BTW when Aoun (version 1.0) first came came on the scene, he refused that attitude and that was the reason for his mass appeal then. Same with Hezbo, you don’t see them running around begging and emboldening their opponents)
UNIFIL forces are present at our borders for the protection of the state of Israel.
That’s what Angela Merkel declared bluntly and without any false shyness.
Ibrahim.
You’re right guys, I guess we should start relying on ourselves a bit more.
I really don’t understand what’s with all this “please help us” going around.
Ibrahim,
When we stop attacking foreign states left and right, from our own territory, and when we are able to impose the rule of law on all our territory, then we can start talking about who is protecting who.
Right now, I don’t give a rat’s ass about whether UNIFIL is there to protect Israel, the Pope, or my Aunt Fatmeh. The fact of the matter is, there is a non-state organization that launches attacks and starts wars whenever it pleases. I think any neighbouring country, is in its full right to either ask for being protected, or to take matter in their own hands and bomb the crap out of us.
I know that’s what i would do if my neighbour kept throwing rocks at my house from beyond his fence. I’d ask for protection, or i’d go to his house and kick his ass. So let’s stop playing victims and get our own house in order.
this sort of abandon and shiftlessness was already evident in last summer’s M14′s idiotic response to the Israel-Hezbo war: teetering, passing the buck and speaking in tongues, then, when some backbone and fighting screeds (and NAMING some fkucing NAMES) were needed, we get a lacrymose tender-hearted Foufou sobbing like a wuss in front of a bunch of useless Arab FMs in flowing nightgowns and kaffiyyés. For what? To get a couple of thousand boyscouts patroling our borders and emboldening Syria and Hezbo?
But like BV and JW said, since the sixties (and I would argue since much much earlier, since the asinine wobbly “national pact”) we’ve been bringing to power jesters (instead of able statesmen) to put a new spin on national abdication and pay more lipservice to useless regional “causes”. pfft!!!
Ibrahim? Still chewing on the same stale ole cud buddy? Ain’t you got some fresher more exciting kinda conspiracy to float our way, bubbah? we’ve had it with the spent ones, how’bout a new fix, genius!!
Just a simple remark taken from the naharnet:
”
“There is a link between the attack which targeted the Spanish contingent of UNIFIL and the combat between the Lebanese army and the terrorists of Fatah al-Islam in Nahr al-Bared,” Aridi told reporters after a cabinet meeting.
“Lebanon is the victim of a terrorist wave striking from the north to the south in which the latest target was the Spanish contingent. This attack was preceded by confessions from arrested terrorists about preparations against UNIFIL.”
they knew, this attack is showing the negligence of our security forces.
Moreover, i suspect that those people who commited that crime are now present in one palestinian camp in South Lebanon.
We should end the outlaw zones of the palestinian camps and place them under lebanese sovereignty through force or through pacific ways.
the question why the 1701 is not applied must be asked. There is no difference in the 1701 resolution inside or outside the question.
I suspect our majority wished to instrumentalise the palestinian weapons in a way or another during the dialogue sessions of 2005 and 2006 when that question was as well on the table while the Hezbollah refused as well as it would open the door to disarm the shia milicia.
The majority could have been disarming the palestinian camps to show the Hezbollah that theses weapons are useless.
Palestinians weapons are a cause of the state’s weakness, Hezbollah’s ones are a symptom, we need to treat the causes to get ride of the symptoms.
Instead of that we are still (and as usual) paying the price of the lack of vision of our majority
Alright guys I`ve read it all. All of your comments make sense however it does not reflect a mature understanding of the Lebanese complexe issues. We all want a strong gov`t and strong statesmen who commit to lebanese independance and sovereignty.Ha! guess what, Lebanon does not exist yet. I recall when Lebanon presented its candidacy in 1944 to join the arab league of nations, Syria vetoed lebanon`s membership claiming that Lebanon`s independance no yet achieved! Guys You should understand it once and for all Lebanon is not master of its destiny, We have terrorist states on our borders. Israel bombards our land when its security is at risk and syria sends us booby traps and terror when it feels that its very regime is at risk. I would understand the attacks by the jewish state-historic ennemy of the arabs- but i do not undestand the slaughter and the terror by Syria `al-shaqiqa`. The only way unfortunately to keep the peace is to outsource, yes outsource! or one should stand up and declare war on our ennemies! ha! Lebanon; what a joke, by the way Tiesto is visiting Lebanon on July the second. A worldwide DJ is coming to entertain the techno generation. Enjoy Tiesto with a couple of extacy pop ups! Ridicoulus!
Huh? Dory, were you actually trying to make a “mature”–your word not mine–point? If so, kindly point me to it.
yours kindly,
Me7taara bi florida
Dory,
You’re making excuses.
Israel is surrounded by countries that hated it and attacked it during it’s entire existence. yet they managed to secure their independance and sovereignty.
So i don’t buy this excuse that we’re surrounded by this and that.
The difference between us and Israel is that every single Jewish Israeli person was committed to the vision of having their own independent and sovereign state. And they fought for it and for their goals.
We on the other hand, are not all committed to a goal of a sovereign Lebanon. Half of us are committed to Iran, or Syria, or France, or whoever else buys us off with a few dollars. We’re cheap whores and we deserve the shit that has beffallen us over the years. It’s high time we admit it. And those of us who realyl do want our independent sovereign state need to fight for it with a true vision. And we need to stop letting these cheap whores tell us what to do. As a Lebanese, I should be incensed every time some idiot (be it Berri, be it Saniora, be it whoever) talks about discussing the situation in Paris, Geneva, Cairo, Taef, or Damascus.
Every time one of these asshats says something like that, a mob needs to go down to their home, overrun their security guards and kick the living shit out of them.
Bad Vee, lakk rayto yeslam ha ttimm!!
Badvilbel,
What universe do you live in? Are you for real dude?
The only reason you have trouble in your country today is because of the very existence of that f-cked up state to your south. So now, the palestinians and the lebanese who have been the primary victims of this relentless, aggressor state have themselves become the oppressors and need to be punished? What f-cking moral code do you read?
That’s the only reason?
So howcome they don’t have civil war in Egypt, Syria or Jordan? Howcome we’re the only country who allowed this crap to happen to us?
Both Syria and Egypt were a LOT more involved in actual war with Israel than Lebanon was, back in the 48 or 67 wars.
The only reason we got stuck with this problem is because the Arab countries dumped the Palestinian problem on us (specially with the Cairo accords). AND WE LET THEM.
King Hussein kicked out the PLO in the 70s when they looked like trouble. What did we do? We split up amongst each other, and half of us sided with the PLO and half of us against. Brilliant.
Then the Syrians and Israelis took turns setting us against each other…What did we do? We gladly accepted.
YOU give me a break. We’re cheap fucking whores and I stand by that argument. We gladly sold our country and our integrity to each and every foreign power who offered us a bit of a taste of money and power.
Name me ONE Lebanese “leader” that turned down the presidency, or money, or power, and told the Syrians, the Israelis, or the Americans or whoever “Fuck off. I’d rather not take commands from a foreigner.”
Name ONE!
I dare you!
BV..
Name me ONE Lebanese “leader” that turned down the presidency, or money, or power, and told the Syrians, the Israelis, or the Americans or whoever “Fuck off”
How About Raymond Eddé ?
Uhm. Fair enough. Edde stayed clear of a lot of the crap. But look at the following he had…Close to none.
Goes to show how much the Lebanese people put into someone who stands up for Lebanon. Zero.
The closest, actually, would’ve been (as mentioned above), Aoun (version 1.0). He said all the right things, back in 89. And that is one of the reasons he was so popular. But eventually, and in typical sectarian fashion, certain segments of the population chose to continue supporting their other leaders, over Aoun’s more “patriotic” stances.
Of course Aoun version 2.0 turned out to be a cheap whore just like the rest of them.
Bad vilbel,
My apologies. You sound to be a patriot a ferocious defender of lebanon`s right to live in peace and a romantic fellow. I do appreciate all these qualities. I am not making excuses and i am not a fatalist. I am trying to be realistic and pagmatic in the same time; qualities that complement yours. How are you going to solve it? ok all are asshats… and we are going to kick the shit out of them… and we are whores..words of anger obviously. Enough of baby talk, politics is not a romantic book neither a fairy tale. politics is dirty! full of swings and tangos, since we are nothing but a beautifull piece of land on the mediteranean with no resources and no gas no oil and no nothing, not even borders ha! can you imagine, how the hell do you want this country to survive. Unless we vote for non intervention in warfare. and draw our borders and once and for all and sign the peace with israel and rewrite the constitution where muslims like christians like druze all one citizen, and abolish the confessionalim.
Bad vilbel,
My apologies. You sound to be a patriot a ferocious defender of lebanon`s right to live in peace and a romantic fellow. I do appreciate all these qualities. I am not making excuses and i am not a fatalist. I am trying to be realistic and pagmatic in the same time; qualities that complement yours. How are you going to solve it? ok all are asshats… and we are going to kick the shit out of them… and we are whores..words of anger obviously. Enough of baby talk, politics is not a romantic book neither a fairy tale. politics is dirty! full of swings and tangos, since we are nothing but a beautifull piece of land on the mediteranean with no resources and no gas no oil and no nothing, not even borders ha! can you imagine, how the hell do you want this country to survive. Unless we vote for non intervention in warfare. and draw our borders and once and for all and sign the peace with israel and rewrite the constitution where muslims like christians like druze all one citizen, and abolish the confessionalism.
Bad and Stef,
Edde was a hero and a great Lebanese. For the trivia part: he was never offered the presidency, though I am certain he would have refused it had it been tied to any “strings”.
More trivia. A lesser man than Edde, but a very honorable man was offered the presidency and turned it down (not sure when, pre or post Rene Moawad?).
His name: Pierre Helou, the father of Aley MP Henri Helou.
Helou told the Syrians bluntly they needed a tougher man for the job (he probably also suspected he would have to become their whore or die).
Dory,
I hear you. I’m not always in my “romantic” mood. I try to be a realist often times, when posting comments around here.
But sometimes, you get to the point where enough is enough. We have suffered too much incompetence from our leaders.
And I am going to disagree with you slightly on one point. You say idealism is useless in our situation (or you imply it). I disagree. Idealism is what moved most big events in history.
Sure, you need a heavy dose of ruthlessness in there. You have to be willing to break some eggs, cause some damage and spill some blood. But idealism brought us things like the French revolution, the russian revolution, the independence of the US from Britain.
Idealism brought the Jewish people a state. Idealism brought us the Cedar Revolution.
Idealism can be a very powerful force. The trick is to have the right people to take advantage of it. True statesmen, who can ride on idealism, yet govern or lead in the real world. Visionaries who can bring their people to believe in an ideal.
And our current (and past) political “leadership” has never really had such a true statesman. All we’ve ever had was power grubbing, small-minded leaders, never willing to look to the good of the country, past their own pocket, or their own sectarian power base.
And it’s a vicious circle. Decades of this broken system has fed into crappy leaders, who have in turn fed into the crappy system, making it less and less about Lebanon. And the people have gladly followed along. We Lebanese have always been people to not rock the boat. “Why start a big revolution? Let the Syrians loot the country. As long as I get my few dollars here and there. And no one burns my store down. I don’t care who runs the show. I’ll just make sure I keep my Zaim happy, and he’ll make sure nothing happens to my store.”
That’s our problem. And we’re seeing it now in Nahr Al Bared.
Look back at the fall of communism in Eastern Europe. And the countless oppressed political prisoners of the Soviet era, and tell me idealism doesn’t pay off. People like Mandela who spent 25 years in jail rather than submit. People like Vaclav Havel, and on and on.
And in the end, the people rose up. They tore down the wall, they tore down Ceaucescu and his secret police…etc.
You get the idea.
Yet we Lebanese continue to sit here and whine about needing outside help because we’re too scared to do the job ourselves.
Abou Steff and Josey,
Raymond Edde was an honest man. The only MP who did not approve the Cairo agreement. Too bad he did not get along with president Chehab in the sixties.
JW,
If memory serves me right Raymond Edde was ‘offered’ the presidency after Sleiman Frangieh’s term. The reason he refused it was, as you said, tied with unacceptable ‘strings’.
I do not remember the details but could look it up if you are interested.
BV,
It is your immoral defense of Israel that is the problem here. I still do not care how much you want Lebanon to be independent and free, you have a moral responsibility to call things as they are.
You give a free pass to a people who came over from foreign countries themselves, and attacked and stole a foreign country, an aggression you detest for others to do. So you are ok with Jews taking over entire Palestine and parts of Lebanon and Syria, kill hundreds of thousands of people, imprison tens of thousands, evict other thousands, steal their water, burn their crops, humiliate them, beat them into nothing, but deem it an irreparable and unforgivable crime that in an act of retaliation Hezb killed eight of their soldiers along a disputed border? Who’s been throwing what rocks at whose house for decades now? But for the sake of a handful of enemy soldiers you are willing to justify the wholesale crimes of a state that has been disparaged and condemned by the majority of the world!
I am not saying you cannot criticize Hezb, Syria, or any other Arab country (some of whom deserve outright vilification), but I must suspect your moral compass, regardless of your ideology and nationality, when you not only leave the principle aggressor out of this but find ways to justify the unjustifiable on their behalf. You still have a soft spot for idealism and seem to admire the oppressed who do not give up, Mandela, the Czechs, etc…is this idealism not acceptable for the Palestinians, or is it they who illegally invaded Palestine and killed its people?
I do not care to name one actor in Lebanon who is clean. But there is a difference when you solicit help to fight a real enemy, as many nations in the world have done (including the very whoring Israel), and when you get it to fight your own brethren. Politics is not clean in Lebanon, and the lines are murky, but there are some very clear positions, however compromised they are sometimes. Syria has done incredible damage to Lebanon, and all the current crop of the anti-Syrian camp were themselves the petty sycophants who personally benefited the most from this immoral relationship. But all this pales to compare with the injustice and criminality of the Zionists, their wanton avarice and the criminal lengths they are willing to go to accomplish as yet their undeclared goals. All may not be Israel’s fault, but you still have to figure out what to do with the ½ million Palestinians whose very destabilizing presence in your midst is the great gift of your Hebrew brethren to the south.
Ali,
I don’t see where Bad Vibel is defending Israel. What he is saying is that the Israelis have a common view of their future while we don’t. We Lebanese are divided into religions, sects, clans & ideologies. We are also divided in the interpretation of our history and ethnicity. At last, we are Lebanese. Even people who claim being Lebanese first are sectarian. We have to sit together, watch a movie of the Lebanese War to say ever again. We have to separate the church/mosque from the state. We still have to build a common Lebanese identity and a common vision of the future. Our opinions might diverge politically; however it should not be anymore along sectarian lines, and we should stop jeopardizing the future of the country at the first misunderstanding.
sorry:
…to watch a movie about the Lebanese War to say never again…
ali is doing, perhaps in good faith, what Hezbo does.
He talks about corruption, independence, honor etc which we can somehow agree on.
I say “somehow” because when we discuss solutions, one side says clean gvmnt, sovereignty, rule of law etc the prerequisites in our view, and in history, to having a country and security etc.
ali is only interested in fighting Israel and being “idealistic” with/like the Palestinians.
Sorry pal, we’ve been on that boat and it leads to hell. That’s why the 2 sides cannot and won’t agree anything (besides Syria’s veto and Aoun-the-clueless).
For whatever reason ali’s answer to every question is “Israel”.
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Why are we even discussing the Palestinian cause again here? Is it the old “al fil wal qadia” syndrome or bad joke?
How about getting a life, and then your own frigging country before you drag us down the shit hole the Arabs and the Palestinians and now Hezbo-Iran are dragging us down?
I know the answer: fight Israel and all will be fine.
Anticipating the reply:
–NO I don’t want Israel in Lebanon and I don’t want overflights and I don’t want to recognize them necessarily.
–Yes we have a BAD refugee problem in Leb but fighting Israel for the next 500 years is not answer.
–Yes, I don’t give a shit about the Palestinian cause, and so don’t most Arabs but won’t say it. You can “accuse” me of that, but that is my RIGHT.
Why the hell is the Palestenian cause our fight? We are just an insignificant little country that gets dumped-on due to our weaknesses. I think that Israel, as it is, is an illegal state, but it did not take my land (in ’48). So excuse the shit out of me if I decide to vehemently voice my protest and not recognize it. And that’s all. Face it guys, it’s not our fight, moral as it is, it’s not our fight.
Oh, and please spare me the “But they are our arab brothers” argument. Tell that to every other Arab country with mountains of cash and acres of land which could have housed the Palestenian refugees until they could go back to the Palestine.
JW,
To people like you, every time someone says Israel is a problem, you say he says Israel is THE ONLY problem, and all he cares about is fighting it! You seem to think that I am so naïve, ill-informed and singularly obsessed with Israel that I do not see the other half of the coin: our own backwardness, division, ignorance, lack of democratic freedoms, gender and economic inequality; dare I go on?
The difference between you and I, is that I do see Israel, with its current expansionist policies, its appetite for dwindling water supplies, and with the presence of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees amongst us who have no political solution, as a problem that we’ll have to deal with now and in the future.
I am not advocating Lebanon or Hezb, fighting the Israelis on their own since this is, with all the Arab states giving in already, is a stupid strategy. But what I do recognize is that Israel is still an enemy, one who has its own selfish national (Jewish) interests and whose pursuit of those interests may mean my own harm or the loss of my land or water. I do not see that as obsession; I see it as being politically and strategically informed, and the smart thing for a neighboring state like Lebanon, who houses a ballooning refugee problem due strictly to Israeli action, and owns water resources which the Israelis covet and have stolen repeatedly, to think of and develop strategies and plans for.
You, on the other hand, by not “giving shit” about the Palestinian cause (and that is your right), does not take you out of the equation of these looming strategic issues. In fact, because you have resigned yourself that Israel is so powerful that we should just give up, make peace, and hope all will be well, you lead yourself to wanting to disarm the only national movement who was able to militarily stand up to the Israelis, and embroil your own country in a potentially catastrophic crisis to achieve what the Israelis with all their American weapons could not do. Instead of building on this core force and effective strategy to help Lebanon defend itself, your camp wants to strip us of this last line of defense and hope and pray that nothing will befall us. Even more, this complete abdication of your national responsibility, has led you to call for help and support from the very people who have been enabling this historic enemy of ours against us all this time. The very fact that the US expedited mega-ton bombs to the frustrated and bewildered Israelis to wipe out whole sections of Dahiyeh killing scores of your own countrymen, and women, in the hope of killing one man, should have been enough shame had the camp 14 leaders had any patriot blood in them.
You want a free, independent Lebanon. I want a strong, free, independent Lebanon who can put together at least some semblance of defense until that time when the Palestinian issue is resolved and the refugees are dealt with. Not to do so would be stupid. Accepting some worthless humvees from the US while Israel is being armed to the teeth does not strike me as a logical strategy. The US is not arming us to defend Lebanon against its own beloved child. That would be ridiculous. If you want to continue believing in your fairy tales and the munificence of culturally and civilizationlly foreign powers, there are those who have learned from history and will trust only themselves. Those without power have nothing to negotiate with. Like Egypt and Jordan, we will be left to beg for the crumbs as the price of our own subservience against our own very interests.
Ali,
I stopped reading halfway through your post because you put words in my mouth that I didn’t say. If you want to have a civil argument with me, I am more than glad to listen and engage. But don’t accuse me of saying things I didn’t say.
Nowhere did I defend Israel. Nor did I once say anything about their taking Palestinian lands.
Nor did I say that I was ok with Israel taking Lebanese (or Syrian land).
None of those things were relevant to my point.
We have a land dispute with Israel. That’s fine. We’ll resolve the dispute.
Israel has a land dispute with Syria. That will one day be resolved. Again, not my point.
My point was, as other readers understood, that other countries (be it France, be it Israel, be it Egypt, be it Jordan) there is a certain unity about their allegiance to their own country FIRST and foremost. They all work towards that, even if they have disagreements internally about how to go about it.
We, in Lebanon are not united behind the one idea of Lebanon. If you don’t see that, I really don’t know what to tell you.
Will you deny that our leaders are all bought and paid for by foreign countries?
And i am NOT singling out one side, as you claim, go back and re-read my post without your blinders on. I mentioned EVERYONE. I mentioned those who were bought by Israel (Bashir Gemayel). I mentioned those who were bought by Syria, I mentioned those who were bought by Iran, France and the US.
I AM calling things as they are. You’re the one who’s only seeing one side of this thing. You think everyone is bought by Israel and the West, but you refuse to see those who are bought by Syria and Iran? Give me a break.
And you ask who throws rocks? Israel did all sorts of horrible things to Lebanon. I do not deny that. But the rocks did come from Lebanon first. The PLO threw rocks at Israel through the 70s and we paid for it.
Explain to me, howcome the PLO didn’t throw rocks at Israel from Syria and Jordan? And when they tried that in Jordan, they were kicked out. And hey, guess what, surprise surprise, Israel has not bombed Jordan to hell. They bombed US. Why? If Israel is all out bent on destroying everyone, they would have bombed Jordan and Syria, no? Somehow, not a single shot gets fired at Israel from the Golan. Or from Jordan. And Israel leaves those borders in peace.
So yes, WE (or the PLO when we let them) throw rocks, and yes, we pay the price.
If you can’t understand the logic there, you are beyond hope.
And no, i am not DEFENDING Israel or discussing the morality of their retaliation here. I am merely stating an objective logical scientific observation: The Syrian and Jordanian borders are quiet. No Israeli retaliation there.
Our border is not. We get retaliation.
Simple as 2+2 = 4. This is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact.
Ali,
We paid enough for the Palestinian cause. The PLO was a corrupt organization that brought hell on Lebanon, especially on the South. We are fed up to be an open front against Israel. Why Sayyed Nasrallah does not ask Syria to open a front on the Golan? Enough, we sacrificed our country for the Palestinian cause and what did we get in return? destruction, civil war etc…Look at the Palestinians now, they are unable to manage a small strip called Ghazza! The palestinian living in Lebanon should abide by Lebanese law, it is in their best interest.
Kheir? Is that you? I am DEEPLY touched! Did YOU really write the comments above? Very touching indeed! I mean it!
–”Why Sayyed Nasrallah does not ask Syria to open a front on the Golan? ”
–”Enough, we sacrificed our country for the Palestinian cause?”
–”At last, we are Lebanese??”
(You actually said that, Kheir??) Whoever you are, what did you do with the other Kheir who thought “being Lebanese” and “being Arab” were coterminous tautology??
Are you saying there is hope that Lebanon would one day trump all extraneous loyalties??? Do tell, Kheir!!
JW,
We are having circular arguments, and you are yourself putting words in my mouth.
Why are you asking me to explain why the PLO used Lebanon and not Syria to launch attacks on Israel? Did I mention that, and did I justify it as a proper strategy? In fact, with the balance of power as is, it would be stupid to start a war with the Israelis. Re-read my post. The July war, its destruction and human toll, even though Israel was stopped and paid a heavy price, was too steep for any country to pay, especially one as poor and ill-equipped as Lebanon. Even Nasrallah admitted that much.
All I am advocating is a strong defense for Lebanon. Again read carefully what I wrote. The kind of army we have now would not last a few hours in the face of an Israeli onslaught. And unless you become a Jordan and integrate the Palestinians into Lebanese society, you’d better be on your guard until such a time when a political solution is found. With their burgeoning birth rates, Palestinian refugees will spill out of the camps and will pose a human and demographic catastrophe to the fragile, absurd and retarded Lebanese political system.
And if you think the inevitable contestation over water resources is a non-issue, I suggest you Google some and find many worthy historic and current articles to read about Israel’s looming water crisis which only the abundant Litani can satisfy according to their historic and more recent leaders. The Litani runs only a few kilometers from their borders at Nabatiye. They will not be waiting for a rock to be thrown, or a couple of unwitting soldiers to be captured to act on what they will deem to be essential for their national security and survival.
Kheirddine,
We are embroiled in the Palestinian cause as long as we have their sizable refugees in our midst. Sure you can ask them to behave, but we have to try to treat them like human beings first.
This however, still does not answer what to do with them in the future. You cannot expect them to multiply and stay put in the inhumane, squalid conditions of their camps . Let’s be real. Something’s got to give, and it usually means trouble…
Dear BadVilbel,
Again I do value your opinion since it is a noble one. IDEALISM, no boubt was behind revolutions around the world which changed the course of history, however, I am not saying that without rreservations. The french revolution would not have succeeded only with Idealistic journalists, authors and zealous workers and citizens. Behind the French Revolution were the ideas of the freemasonry and the protestant wide promulgation in europe and growing influence. The french revolution would not have been achieved without those two driving forces. The aspirations of the french together with the freemasonry power of Ideas and the Protestant fervent opposition to the Catholic church, all found common goals.
In regards to Bolshevism, there was communism, a noble idea manifested in the first ‘Kibutz’in Israel. In fact behind Karl Marx idea lined up the worldwide jewery to avenge the “Pogroms” of the Tsar-slaughtering of the Jews- the USSR was the first to acknowledge the jewish state.
I can mention also the Ayat’ullah revolution in Iran, this revolution would have been possible without coinciding with the USA interests in Asia to prevent the infiltration of comunism into Iran. Where the Idea to implante a religious regime opposite to the athiest regime.
It is not only IDEALISM unfortunately that is the driving force behind revolutions it needs to coincide with other intersts and more powerful forces.
In Lebanon The ‘cedars revolution’ is Junk, sorry! but it is the Gucci and the Dolce Gabana that competed on the streets of Beirut! Our revolution should have continued seriously with no halt! but unfortunately, we have no noble ideas and common interests that coincide with our inspirations We have IDEALISM we need more! I hope my Idea is clear.
Dory
LNH, of course I am Lebanese and an Arab who is disappointed by all Arabs. We, Christians & Muslims, might not agree about history however we are closer to each other than we think. That, I learned it in the ”Mahjar”. Let’s build a Lebanon of coexistence and freedom. Let’s dump our politicians and start from scratch. For the Palestinians on Lebanese soil, I agree with you Ali that they need better conditions. Let’s start by collecting money for them from the PLO & Mrs. Arafat for the billions of dollars of Arab and Western aid they embezzled over three decades. Before worrying about the Palestinians, we should rebuild our country the right way, by promoting the civil society
and launching infrastructure and development projects in the North, in the South and in the Bekaa. True, five stars hotels do not make Lebanon a developed country and there is still a lot to do. Just look on Google Earth at our southern enemies, look how much planified and developed is their landscape. And look at Lebanon, what a mess! Though Lebanon’s nature is the most beautiful in the region. However, we keep on destroying it by building without planification, by cutting the forests and carving quarries in the mountains. It is about time we wake up! Enough worry about Aoun, Joumblat, Geagea, Nasrallah, Berri, Hariri etc… We should turn our back on all of them!
We are bound to the ‘NWNL’ State. No winner no looser. you know that kind of crap.
Hi Dory!
You actually are saying the same as me, Dory. Your examples all go about saying that there was idealist forces at work, as well as some practical considerations, support and coinciding with more powerful forces. Well, we have both today in Lebanon. We have the idealism I spoke of. And we also have a great opportunity where most of the international community (spare for Iran and Syria) want us to succeed. That’s my very point: it’s time we sack up and do our share of the work and stop whining about it. We are being given every opportunity to try to build a nation, and instead, we whine, and we act with petty self interest.
All my respect Kheir, I support your opinion. We have no choice but to live Our arabism the way we please. Unfortunately this is not the opinion of our fervent Arab neighbours. For them, we have betrayed the very core of arabism, because we tried to make it evolve and to introduce to it foreign progressive ideas.
Dear BV,
don’t you think it is a bit naive to say that the whole international comunity is behind us? The United States will bargain with syria and with Iran eventually. The Arab league, although it is apparent to them that Syria wants to distabilize lebanon, came short of blaming Syrian interference. Saudi arabia the biggest arab ally to the united state is negotiating with Iran on Behalf of GW bush. The Intention of the united states is to score points against Iran in Lebanon nothing more. You will see soon direct face to face negotitians between the big satan and the ayat’ullah, and all during these talks lebanon will explode.
Badvilbel says, “And we also have a great opportunity where most of the international community (spare for Iran and Syria) want us to succeed.”
Absolutely laughable. The “international community” wants you to succeed at what? Fighting their fight against those they deem their enemies in Lebanon and elsewhere, mainly your compatriots, and you are wittingly or unwittingly obliging. Did the international community want you to succeed when Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years, or when Syria went in and occupied you for the better of 30 years? Why don’t the Americans want the Palestinians to succeed? Are you of a different type or race that appeals more to their sensibilities and liking?
This childish belief that the “international community” (US and allies) are willing to help and sacrifice for the pure benefit of some Lebanese (due to their beautiful eyes I guess) is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You are providing a great service to them, for very, very cheap. Trust me, you could a lot more out of them than the few humvees they promised. They tried to get Israel to do the job, at countless billions of dollars, and failed. You, in your great wisdom jump in and offer yourself, even if it means the destruction of your country. Whores usually have some smarts and get good fees for their demeaning work. But to whore and get nothing, or next to nothing, is the ultimate insult. That is a sad victim indeed.
Dory,
The United States will bargain with syria and with Iran eventually.
For what possible purpose? Can the US trade Lebanon for a regime change in Iran? I don’t see what Iran or Syria can offer the US, that has any possible value. Nor do I see why the US would ever trust any offer the Iranians made, anyway.
If and when Iran controls Iraq, the US will bargain with the Arab states. And will wage a proxy war against Iranian interests in Iraq. And maybe in Lebanon, too. I could make a pretty good argument that sucking Iran into Iraq is the easiest way to defeat that regime, actually.
And that *is* the top priority for the US right now. Regime change in Iran. I’m not saying the US is above selling anybody out. I’m saying I don’t see what the US could possibly gain from “bargaining” with Iran. Even if we were stupid enough to think we could trust the IRI at it’s word.
Ali,
You, in your great wisdom jump in and offer yourself, even if it means the destruction of your country.
I think you grossly over-estimate Hezbollah’s capability. If we (the US) wanted to destroy HA so badly that we didn’t care about destroying Lebanon and leaving it a failed state, we could do that in short order. HA is not a problem for the United States. HA is a problem for Lebanon.
This is probably the most idiotic topic I have come across in a few days….
“Who helps those that help us help the helpers of each other’s help!?” GET A FREAKING GRIP!
But back on topic, this is really pathetic…
I rank this one step lower than Sanioura’s televised crying :/
Its really interesting how similar Israel and Lebanons Situations are..
1) Foreign interests pushing and and pulling on the people – Israel hates the fact that a “quartette” is now dictating its future
2) two great countrys held back from their full potential because of the “palestinian problem” – what do they do thats ever positive?
Is Beirut spring still spring or it is becoming a fall ? or Beirut-Gaza Spring ? or Beirut-Baghdad Spring ?
Ali, etc.: CHANGE THE PARADIGM: 1) Peace w/Israel. Both countries, Lebanon and Israel, could become the biggest financial-techno power in the region.
2)S.Arabia, with their oil money could, for once, contribute to peace and help the Palestinian refugees be absorbed into Lebanon. That would stop breeding discontent and misery.But Let’s face it : if Lebanon would implement just #1 idea the paradigm would certainly change and for the good.
Ali,
“And if you think the inevitable contestation over water resources is a non-issue, I suggest you Google some and find many worthy historic and current articles to read about Israel’s looming water crisis which only the abundant Litani can satisfy according to their historic and more recent leaders. The Litani runs only a few kilometers from their borders at Nabatiye. They will not be waiting for a rock to be thrown, or a couple of unwitting soldiers to be captured to act on what they will deem to be essential for their national security and survival.”
Why don’t you beat Israelis to the punch? Why don’t you offer to sell water to them? Talking about natural resources …
“We are embroiled in the Palestinian cause as long as we have their sizable refugees in our midst. Sure you can ask them to behave, but we have to try to treat them like human beings first.
This however, still does not answer what to do with them in the future. You cannot expect them to multiply and stay put in the inhumane, squalid conditions of their camps . Let’s be real. Something’s got to give, and it usually means trouble… “
“This however, still does not answer what to do with them in the future.” – Nothing
If you will properly implement part one of your idea that is aside from granting them citizenship (to preserve your precious and delicate sectarian voting balance) you will give them all the rights Lebanese citizen has your problem will go away over time. Many will leave Lebanon anyway for economical reasons.
Lebanon has only one real enemy, which may be impossible to defeat or at least it is the hardest. Sectarianism. Once this problem is resolved rest will practically tend to itself.
Like I said yesterday. All these land and water issues have peaceful resolutions. The rest of the world has moved on and is trading in energy and buying and selling things like this as commodities. We, in the middle east, still think we can tackle these issues through war, resistance, invasions and bombs.
Ali,
I agree with you that Lebanon needs a strong defense. Like any country. At least until the regional conflict is resolved. But I don’t think that defense needs to come from a private party. That automatically makes it subservient to non-Lebanese agendas (even if they are ones you agree with today, you may not tomorrow).
Why not integrate all these great defenses into the Army? And don’t tell me because the Army is weak. That’s another example of whining. If the army is weak, let’s make it stronger. Start by integrating all the wonderful defenses we have into the army.
As for “the international community wants us to succeed”. I think you misunderstood me. Trust me, I know very well the international community can turn around and sell us to Syria or Iran in a heartbeat if it suits them. They did it in 1990. If you recall my original point was that we need to stop whining and asking for help, and do things ourselves. What I’m saying here plays into that. I’m saying we should take advantage of the international community being on our side FOR NOW (before they change) and use that opportunity to strengthen oursleves as best we can. It’s a lot easier for Lebanon to build those defenses you speak of, when those who can supply the weapons, the training, the financial support are actually wanting to help.
We saw how well our defenses and our state got developped between 1990-2005. The Syria-Iran “help” resulted in a weaker Lebanese army and zero defense abilities. Maybe it’s time to try help from the other side. What’d you say? Let’s give the Americans 15 years, just like we gave the Syrian 15 years. See if they can do a better job. Heh.
Ali, the only thing for which Israel can be faulted is to have provided people like you (and your stunted culture) with a pretext for your home-grown failures, your obscurantism, your intellectual and cultural mediocrity, your corrupt elites and political classes, your backwardness, your intrensigence, oh and the ever sooo sweet art of victimhood that your culture invented (even though ALL your wounds are self-inflicted.) Get a freagin life already, and stop blaming Israel for everything that is inherently wrong in your culture (INCLUDING your blinkered thought system—and I use “thought” with plenty of poetic license here.)
victimhood: the ability of not being able to see your own mistakes, blame somebody else for those mistakes and thus the solution is in the hands of “that” somebody else…………eternal victimhood, poor me……………….
Louis-
No one mastered the art of victimhood, and milked it and misused quite like the Zionist Jews. You have made a whole industry out of the holocaust. What should have been just another sad chapter in human history, not unlike other countless miserable and wrenching stories of human folly and cruelty, you have turned it into, indeed, a “unique,” cheap and convenient tool to beat down and silence anyone, Jew and gentile alike, who dares question your tactics, policies and crimes. You continue to go after individuals, companies and nations who may have participated in killing you, robbing you, evicting you from your homes, but are blind to how you are essentially perpetrating the same crimes against the Palestinians, killing them, robbing them, evicting them.
By what intellectual and cultural supremacy, and by what evolved culture (as opposed to our stunted culture), do you deem it legitimate to collect yourselves, different citizens from different nations, albeit of the same religion, and come into a foreign land, connive with self-serving super powers, draw designs to steal it from under its owners, and eventually mostly succeed, and continue to do so with the remaining morsels you are not satisfied to leave them?
Our societies may indeed lag behind yours and others, but that does not excuse you to come in to our neighborhood, take our homes and kill us. But you unleash your indignations above because some of us dare to remind you of your misdeeds against us? You will not even suffer the victim to protest? By what morbid ethical reasoning do you justify to yourself the murder and theft of a people who did you no wrong before you decided to invade and usurp their land?
Arabs societies maybe backward, but yours if full of hypocrisy and deceit. Your nation is built on lies you feed yourselves, and especially others, those whose support you extract through deviousness and threats. So spare me the hot air. I hope you don’t believe what you wrote above. Self-deception is the greatest crime you can perpetrate against yourself.
While I agree that Israel has long played the victim, I don’t think that’s an excuse for us to do the same now.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
Just because someone else commits a crime doesn’t mean we can do it too. This kind of thinking has always been idiotic and immoral.
I am so sick and tired of everyone playing the victim. People need to sack up and admit to their mistakes and take matters into their own hands.
“But the other guy does it too” is not an acceptable excuse.
(PS: I don’t think Louis-Noel is Israeli)