hi Mustapha,

What is your own view on the Islam in Europe? What position do you think Islam should have in European societies, and how should European societies deal with Islam? (if there should there be any special policy at all, I mean there is no special policy for Buddhism or Hinduism or Mormonism or Christianity etc, so why should there be any special policy devoted to Islam?). I’d like to know what you, as a (secular?) Muslim familiar with ‘Western’ society think about this.

Personally I don’t like the distinction between “European” and “Muslim”. Being European is no religion, it’s a geographic indication, and I don’t see why these two should be opposed. Like there is no contradiction contained within “being a Christian and being from the Middle East” or “living in Australia and being a Buddhist”.

The difference between the fervor and the yawn is more the press than the public. We non-Muslims are, mostly, not surprised nor offended by Muslim conservatism but speaking as an American, no matter one’s religion or political bent, the civil law of the land rules. No room for theocracy here.

Good article.

Gma

Sharjah is still a very conservative emirate in comparison to others in UAE. It was bad planning by the pageant organizer who failed to understand that…a bit of homework and research can help know and understand other people, cultures and religions. Once you know something better, you are more likely to have a dialogue, hence a relationship.

When Europeans are beheading Muslim civilians or dragging them behind cars and trucks in the streets, distributing those videos and playing them repeatedly on news channels

When Europeans are holding Muslim children hostage in their schools

When Europeans are marching in the streets, burning flags and effigies of Muslim political and religious figures

When Europeans are bombing buses used by Muslims

When Europeans are passing out candy to celebrate Muslim deaths

Then Europeans will be just like Muslims…or perhaps they are not at all like Muslims, thank God.

Sorry Mustapha, aren’t you dividing human beings into two theoretical groups?

I’m European and spend my hollidays with a Muslim and his family. He is sort of an adopted son to me. Had his German citizenship last year and is proud to be European.

My daughter’s best friend is Muslim - how should I explain to those girls that they are different?

The two girls share so much values, have so much thinking in common, that I am simply not able to commucicate your distinction without damaging something that is a lot more valuable than a theory or a religion.

In our company we have so many Muslims working who belong to us and our society. I refuse to create a difference between us after peacefully (and joyfully) having shared our lives for decades.

If you feel you’re a Muslim who cannot live with European values, it’s a problem of your tolerance. But not all Muslims think this way and not everybody puts religion above everything else.

And please don’t tell me that those examples are not Muslim anymore. They just follow the principle: live and let live.

Hi Mustapha

You do yourself a disservice…

Perhaps its time for hordes of Germans and French to move to Arabia and demand pig farms and beer

And if the saudis dont allow pig farms and brew pubs - then they should riot and burn down nursuries…and then call the saudis culturally insensitive - for not understanding how important pig farms and beer are to thier new immigrant “friends” - oh - and then demand more jobs and housing and opportunity for their children because they havent already done enough for them

Then demand to be in politics - so that when the issue of pig farms and brew pubs comes up, there will be enough white christian candidates to insure that pig farms and brew pubs will be allowed

is the picture getting clearer…

Mustapha,

Good article. Infact, I’ve been having the feeling that Europe is not the palce for a Muslim to be now. I say that with a heavy heart. I was even contemplating whether I would stay here in London if I got a job offer. Honestly, i’m really sick of Muslims and Islam bashing. The frequency is so high, nearly everyday you have to hear something in the newspapers,radio or tv. Not that the Muslims don’t deserve that kind of criticism (indeed they do things that seem outrageous even to me, a lebanese muslim born in a conservative family) but its the aim behind that and the sometimes racist tone underlying it. For example, it has now become fashionable to criticize, ridicule, and mock islam or muslims just like it is trendy to eat organic food. If you are a politician and looking for a higher post or running for elections, all you have to do is criticize muslims (just like Jack Straw did). The Time’s article said something very right, Europe is swaying towards the far right. I said it before on your blog, if this trend is unchecked, it wouldn’t be long before we have a Muslim’s Auswitz.

My opinion is that Islam can be reconciled with europe. Muslims first and Europeans second need to compromise. I’m an advocate of multiculturalism, but i think the way it was applied here in England was totally wrong.Muslims abused it and are still abusing it as I’m typing these letters. It is outrageous that the English flag can’t be raised on the Town Hall because it is offensive to some people. If it is offensive then why the fuck did you come to this country in the first place! In other towns, they had to change the name of christmas lights to white lights so as not to offend. In another town they want to ban piggy banks! They are ridiculous and shaming.

On the other hand the Europeans should also be reasonable with what they ask from immigrants. The Europeans have lost their religeon and are simply asking muslims to lose their religeon as well. It is as simple as that.

My final say on this issue is to you Mustapha. I think that you’re only reading right wing sources. The independent has the answer to the Time’s article. If only their article got the same exposure as the Time’s. What a shame. I’m leaving here anyway…

@ abdulkarim

Please don’t go, we need open minded people like you.
People like you could be a counterbalance to the extremists and the intolerant.
We don’t want to be left alone with them.

I said it before on your blog, if this trend is unchecked, it wouldn’t be long before we have a Muslim’s Auswitz.

Wow, that’s a tough accusation. Please tell me exactly who threatens or kills whom in Europe. Are there any legal restrictions for Muslims like the ones that announced Auschwitz in Germany’s 30s?

The Europeans have lost their religeon and are simply asking muslims to lose their religeon as well. It is as simple as that.

No, not at all. Europeans only ask for one thing: religion to be treated as a private affair. Maybe because of that you’ve gained the impression, that we’ve lost religion. But this is not true.

The reason for religion being treated as a private affair is quite obvious if you look at European histories. Too many wars, too many people killed in the name of whichever God.

@ katrin

“Europeans only ask for one thing: religion to be treated as a private affair.”

I am aware that most Europeans demand that indeed. “Whatever you believe is your business, as long as I am not bothered by it” is the mentality.
But religion in itself is always associated with community, or things larger than one’s self.

Or to put it in another way, someones religion will always somehow affect the way he/she is living and interacting with the world around him/her.
For example, if your religion tells you that it is good to give to charities then the charities in your neighbourhood should somehow notice that you live there. Or if your religion tells you to forgive your enemies, then your enemies will have to notice that.

As a European I think we are making a big mistake by demanding that religion is only a private affair. Because religion cannot be just a private affair.

Perhaps what people mean to say is that it is wrong to want to dictate others how to live. That is perfectly true but that is something else. It has to do with the notion that each person as an individual has the responsibility to live his/her life as he thinks is best (within the limits of the law of course).
In more traditional cultures that notion is not yet very common, hence the social pressure to behave in a certain way. But in my opinion that has nothing to do with religion being a private affair or not. It is rather related to culture.

By the way, the flip side of the lack of individualism in many cultures / countries is an immense sense of community and solidarity. This is something we lack in Europe.

Katrin

The current discourse concerning Muslims and Islam in Europe is similar to the anti-semitic discourse in 19th century Europe. Nazism did not come out of the blue in the 1930s. My concern is that soon we will have legal restrictions similar to those that preceded Auswitz.

As for Europe losing its religeon, i stand by my point. When it comes to religeous sanctity, Europe has unfortunately none for any religeon. I know Christian Europeans who are embittered by this fact. This is a Post-Christian Europe and if you do not agree with that i think you are in denial.

@ Traveler, thanx for your words :)

Abdul Karim, I’ll come back to your Nuremberg laws comment, but I do agree that the mood has shifted, and here’s why:

I think it’s pretty fair to say that ten years ago Islamophobia was just about unknown. British Muslims were on the receiving end of occasional racist attitudes and abuse, but it was all to do with the colour of their skins. Blacks, Chinese and (Hindu) Indians got the same treatment.

Now things have changed. Why? Because a Muslim man, born here, and brought up through the British system, got on a bus a year ago and blew up his fellow citizens.

That’s right: His fellow citizens. But a minority of British Muslims deny that “we” have anything in common with “them” - sixteen percent according to a survey published in The TImes in July
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-2254764,00.html)

Unfortunately, as you say, some British Muslims aren’t willing to accept that they are living in the UK and as usual it’s the extremists making all the noise. Cases like the Muslim teacher who is refusing to take off her veil to teach young children tars the whole community with the same brush:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6050392.stm

Some Muslims (and not only in the UK) unfortunately seem to have a real victim mentality instead of using the democratic process to air their grievances.

A democratic process that by the way isn’t biased against Muslims. Just the opposite in fact. Our “first past the post” system of electing members of Parliament (Parliament is split into 650 odd districts, with each electing one member) favours groups who are concentrated in certain areas.

Though I profoundly disagree with some of the pollicies of an organisation MPAC (www.mpacuk.com), they at least work to mobilise Muslims through the system and that’s of course completely their right. Not only legal, but much healthier.

Abdul Karim, I’ll add two more things as well.

First of all I sincerely hope you don’t leave London. I don’t know how long you have been living here, but London has been described as almost a separate city state in the UK.

Within London zones one and two you won’t find many people who buy the “granny mugged by muslims” headlines you see in the Daily Express (a right wing tabloid for people not familiar with Britain).

Secondly though I think your comment that we could see Nuremberg style laws against Muslims are way, way off the mark.

I’m horrified that you actually believe this and the whole fabric of our society would need to unravel before this would come about.

Your 1st comment though was spot on. We need the minority of British muslims who are against the whole system to remember that at the end of the day we are their fellow citizens.

And on our part, we need to make an effort to lower the temperature.

So as far as wearing veils goes - it might be good manners to take it off when speaking to someone and you certainly shouldn’t wear it when teaching children, but at the end of the day this isn’t Saudi Arabia or Iran and people should be able to wear what they please.

So long as they aren’t forced into it, or force the rest of us to dress likewise of course…

@ dirk

I think it’s important to be aware that the terrorists who carry out their crimes actually want to polarize society in the way we are seeing now.
They apparently see the world as the battle ground between Islam and all the rest. If there isn’t war already they are trying to draw all of us into it.
The intention of terrorists is not just to kill a few people. They want to polarize the whole society into two groups: Muslims and non-Muslims. So if, as a result of the terrorist attacks, we are starting to think negatively about Muslims as a group, we are responding exactly in the way the terrorists hope we would do. And if ordinary, moderate Muslims start to feel bad because they seem not as devout or fervent as their radical counterparts, they are behaving exactly as the terrorists would like them to.
So instead of falling into the ‘polarization’ trap we need to reach out to our Muslim neighbours, especially the moderate.

A Traveller and Abdul Karim,

my defense for religion being treated as a private affair is in no way ment to reduce the importance of religion. But I want religion to be protected from political abuse.

There is no problem with a teacher wearing a veil, as long as she doesn’t teach any fantasies about the superiority of the caliphate or conspiracy theories against Jews. By doing this, she abuses our respect for religions and abuses her religion for political purposes.

Another example is Hamas and the Palestinians gradually transforming to devout Muslims. Arafat was secular, he rode the socialist anti-imperialists’ wave. Saddam was secular as well. Only when Islam became popular they adopted it as a convenient political instrument. The violence remains the same, but now it is done in the name of Allah.

And I’m not in denial regarding the question of lost religion in Europe. There is a left-wing movement that claimes to have given up Christianity. But if you look closely, many of them still follow Christian principles, i.e. solidarity. In the wake of the Iraqi invasion the peace movement rediscovered Jesus’ Sermon on the mount.

Maybe you didn’t notice the debates about mentioning God in the European Constitution. The adverseries did not object to God’s existence but that this paragraph might insult Muslims and might turn out to be an exclusion criteria for Turkey one day.

And talking about Nuremberg, Abdul Karim, I’d like to invite you to Germany. We’ll go to a mosque and then visit a Synagogue. You’ll see which one is heavily protected by police. Even Jewish schools need protection. Why? Our politicians decided to tolerate that our Jewish German citizens still are threatened because of a conflict taking place in another area of the world. I still don’t get it, but I have to respect their decision.

What I absolutely cannot accept, though, is a Muslim telling me about the danger of new Nuremberg laws coming up against Muslims.

I don’t deny that the discourse for Muslims has become tougher and that there are stupid people in Europe who are not able to differentiate. But do you think I don’t encounter them? When I tell those stupid ones I’m German, I hear about Übermenschen and am followed by a mind police looking for my racist attitudes. When speaking English, I have a French accent. That’s how I discovered that the stupid of the English people hate the Froggies even more than us Germans.

There is a difference between the discourse of the Anti-semits (that still exists nowadays) and the one about Islam. The propaganda spread against Jews are irrational lies. Whereas we’ve had a certain amount of violence committed in the name of Islam.

Dirk,

I agree with you totally. On the veil issue i’m 100% against it as it is not islamic but cultural. But as i said it’s not a matter of what Jack said but why and when he said it. As for Britain declining to Nazism, well I also agree with you 100%. I’ve been here for two years now and was impressed by the British culture of fairness (which is not so fair when it comes to israeli/palestinian conflict though). That is why in my first comment i expressed my dismay using the phrase ” with a heavy heart”. My fears is not from Britain but mainland Europe. You can see there is a genuin fear of repatriation and deportation within the muslim communities living in Austria, as pointed out by the Times article. Moreover, i’ve been frightened by the dutch reaction to Van Gogh’s killing. One lunatic commits murder and the next day the whole of the community (and even worse, religeon ) is put under the microscope and demonised. Zero tolerance from the dutch????!!!

Katrin,

All the attrocities in the middle east are committed in the name of Jews by Israel. In response we have now similar murders committed in the name of Allah. You have to understand what’s going on in the midlle east to know why synanogues are being protected in Germany. And I totally denounce such racist attacks albeit the racism of the Israeli appartheid. And by the way, what was the result of the last elections you had in the eastern part of Germany?

What can I say, Mustapha, you are a brave person to bring this subject to light. Historically, this subject is a taboo; and the person who brings it up is accused of being bad things like crusader. Anyway, I think the issue is not about whehter muslims should drink alcohol, eat pork or allow beauty pageant contest. It is about two cultures interfering in each other affairs. Who said that a society banning Alcohol is a bad one. Alcohol has proved to ahve the same effect as “pot”. So if the USA is banning now “pot”, they are bad and retared societies?
Who made these western people the judge and gave them the power to change the middle eastern socieies? Same applies on muslims living in Europe, nobody gave htem the power to overrule the European laws. As for the comment left by the second anon (4th comment), I have this to say:
When did the muslims kill 650 000 European, just like the US war in Iraq did;
When the muslims kill millions and millions of Japenese;
When the muslims kill more than 6 million Jews;
When the muslims kill millions of people in some crusade;
When the muslims polute our planet on a ratio of 100 times more than other set of people;
Then the muslims will be like the europeans… thank god they are not….
In summary, conflict arises when one culture think it is right and try to impose its norms onto another one who think the other one is wrong,…

Abdulkarim,

do you really think it’s the first time, someone tells me about ME history? Maybe you remember the Olympic games in Munich. At that time I seriously started reading books, I was young and began thinking in a more political way.

My uncle had a house in the Olympic village. A friend’s father had constructed the famous ceiling of the arena. I was attached to these games and I couldn’t understand what happened then. But I wanted to, so since then I read every book available, I followed every incident in the news. But I would have learned, even if I hadn’t cared.

Some years later my parents came back from Mallorca. Exactly a week after they arrived savely at home, the captain who had flown them was killed.

My youth was dominated by the RAF terrorists. They selected Jews in Mogadishu, they killed the father of a school-mate and were supported by Palestinians. I’ve listened to all the arguments.

I saw the PLO burning the streets of Jordan, throwing your country into a civil war, killing old innocent people in the name of whatever. I’ve seen an Arafat armed to the teeth holding his speech at the General Assembly of the UN. I kept on listening to both sides, even went back into history starting at 1850.

I won’t go on, it’s 34 years now. Until the beginning of this year I was still willing to support the moderate Palestinians and their rights. But now it’s over, I’m not impartial anymore. Qana and other incidents with children involved have finally convinced me.

So please don’t give me any statements about Israel without proving them. I’m fed up with children being killed and that Nasrallah guy with his pride about his young son being killed was the last straw I needed.

sorry.

Uh, and the Eastern part of Germany: so few people voted actually that if you had taken the real figures, the NPD wouldn’t have passed our 5%-hurdle (in Germany you need a minimum of 5% to enter a parliament).

“So please don’t give me any statements about Israel without proving them. I’m fed up with children being killed and that Nasrallah guy with his pride about his young son being killed was the last straw I needed.”

Katrin

Didn’t you just say Qana? Have you watched what they did to Lebanon or are you blind? I have nothing to say to you on this matter anymore but a final advise. Read “The Question of Palestine” by Edward Said.

You know, a traveller, your advice would be good if that was all the terrorists want. But unfortunately, if the terrorists REALLY want to do what they say, that is, bring down the west and put non muslims in dhimmitude, then your approach actually helps them.

I suspect it is simpler than that. Cowards want to please their oppressors in the hopes that they will be personally spared the most severe beatings. I think most of those who seek to appease terrorists, those who keep saying “Islam is a religion of peace” are actually cowards rationalizing their fear of standing up to be counted by both the good and the bad.

Anon,

No one actually believes that the US killed 650,000 people in Iraq. You can oppose the US in Iraq for many reasons, heck, some of them good. But quoting left wing lies like that one just makes you look like a hateful asshole, to be ignored.

The Lancet also had BS “revelations” just prior to the last US election too. If you actually believe this “study”, then you are simply another fool manipulated by the left.

Anon,

You forget the muslim role in the Crusades. You know, how muslim armies went westward to rape, kill and rob, and then the Christians had to come kick their asses back to the desert?

Abdulkarim,

yes, Qana, unlike others I’ve followed the story until the end:

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/columnists/hannah_allam/15299737.htm

Look at the picture. The official death toll in Qana is 28. 29 were burried. How many Hezbollah-coffins do you see?

Hezbollah doesn’t deny using children ‘martyrs’, they’re proud of it:
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20060907-082846-4835r.htm

I’ve read the original interview at Radio Canada, it’s in French.

Have you seen Nasrallah celebrating the death of his son? Unfortunatly the video isn’t online anymore.

Said, Finkelstein et al - I’ve read them all. But that’s not my point.

After WWI, the world was shocked: no one would have imagined so many soldiers dying in such inhuman conditions. After WWII the world was shocked again - no one would have imagined so many civilians dying.

A very wise man set up what became the Geneva Conventions. Their spirit is to install a set of rules regardless of the cause the parties are fighting for. The answer was terrorism and now we see children dying.

The point is: you cannot ask one conflict party to respect the conventions while its enemy does everything to brake the rules.

This year a boy from my hometown returned from his hollidays in a coffin. A news-speaker described his death as ‘unfortunate circumstances’. I had to explain him that suicide bombers chose their targets. A ten-year-old and a baby are easily recognisable as children, no? It was the ugliest conversation I can imagine.

I see what’s going on in Gaza, without any IDF involved. I’m aware that besides Hezb there’s another group that no one dares disarming in Lebanon. I’m aware that the number of Palestinians killed by Palestinians in the OTF is nearly as high as Israli civilians killed by Palestinians since outbreak of the second Intifada.

I don’t want to see more children deliberately being killed. That’s my main issue. I read a correspondance nearly 100 years old. The man said: for every innocent deliberately killed we should refuse them one acre of negociated territory.

This year I’ve decided that a cause for which children are deliberatly killed has no right to claim any justice. As long as they don’t refrain from these barbaric methods, my ears will be deaf.

That rule applies for the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers, for the few remaining IRA terrorists (Irland) as well as Hamas or Hezbollah and the Tchetchens.

Back in the day my people-the Irish Catholics washed up on the shores of America were “different”.

We owed allegience to a foreign Pope, we rioted in the streets when our children were forced to hear the Protestant Bible read out in the public schools of the USA, we worshipped idols, and had way too many children.

Our churches were burned until our men got rifles and the “nativist” mobs backed off. Up until the 1970’s, our morality was considered stricter-no divorce, no contraception, no abortion-than the mainstream.

Then the Church faltered and weakened, and we-the individual Irish-were finally free to make our own decisions and go our own ways. Not without conflict and heartbreak-I had the first “boyfriend” in my Irish Catholic family, and the rifle came came out of the closet.

Brandished, not fired-but it was a near thing. And if my Daddy had shot me and my lover back in 1972-do you think he’s have gotten the maximum from any Upstate New York jury?

He would not have claimed an “honor killing”, but he would have claimed emotional distress-about what???

Female purity, my daughter as property, father’s rights, this kid was defiling her…

He could have knocked it down to manslaughter-eight to twenty, maximum, he’d have got out on parole after a couple of years because an American jury would have considered his overreaction “natural”.

You are a Lebanese Muslim exile, and a young person, Beirut Spring. Too young, I think, to really intuit the ways of the world, and the roots of religion.

And don’t look to Europe for salvation. NOW Europe is fine-but where are the ghettos of yesteryear? Where the hell are the Jews?

Ashes in Poland or flying airplanes over the skies of Lebanon, unfortunately.

Oh, and the moderate assimilated Muslims of Europe…they are still being exhumed from the earth of Bosnia.

To me, it’s a novel idea to think of Europe as a place to run to as opposed to a place to run from…

The world has changed.

I can’t get used to it either.

hi Katrin,

your post reminds me of an article by Matthias Küntzel:

http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/ahmadinejads-demons

traveler,

I didn’t know this article by Künztel, although I read his book and am aware of his studies.

Thank you - it’s disgusting. What came to my mind, however, is that you don’t find this kind of propaganda in Iraq.

Dear All
I think the Subject at hand should be separated into two categories,

First of all is the Issue of ‘Muslims vs. Others’:
There is a great gap and a lack of understanding from both sides.
Here you would have to excuse me but I have to go into some details of Islam so I can pinpoint the differences and misunderstandings from both sides.
I for one who truly believes that religion isn’t individualistic and can’t be practiced without affecting one’s daily life. As a Muslim I know for a fact that Islam spreads from the individual to the community. Even in each of the five pillars of Islam there are links between the individual and the Islamic community. At the same time the Muslim should abide by certain rules which might sometimes present him to the outside world as different. For example; being forbidden from 1- Gambling, 2- Eating Pork, 3- Eating an animal or bird which has died on it’s own (because the blood left inside becomes toxic) 4- Drinking Alcohol (even though The Quran pointed out that both Alcohol and Gambling might have benefits to a person, but their Disadvantages are far more than their advantages thus one should refrain from committing them), 5-Drinking blood, or eating remains of clotted blood in a dead animal or bird, 6-Getting interest on money they own. On the other hand there is another Islamic teaching which is that women should wear decent clothes and a veil (in general the woman should be covered except for her hands and face, unlike the customs in Saudi Arabia which are taken from old Arab customs, and obliges the women to cover even her face and hands, which is taking things away from true Islam).
Many non Muslims especially nowadays would view many if not all of the above practices as weird; they would definitely feel the difference of the other (the Muslim) and sometimes different can be scary. I as a Muslim view the matter in a different way. Let’s take the first six points for now, me as a Muslim see that these things were not forbidden for the fun of it, but rather because they are harmful to humans as individuals and to society as a whole. For instance, Gambling can drive someone broke and destroy His/Her life, marriage and family. Alcohol in turn can cause mishaps, accidents, and addiction. I won’t go on in detail about the other parts, you get the point.
As for Women and veils, many non Muslims and even Muslims sometimes consider it to be a restriction of freedom, or an unnecessary obligation. They don’t look at it in a way of preventing the woman of becoming a sex object, and a marketing tool. I even heard such a comment from a woman from Romania, she said: why do you always debate about whether a woman should wear a veil or not, rather than debating the fact that women have become sex symbols nowadays and nothing more. I for one who do not have a problem both ways, even though it is a must in Islam, but whether the woman is my sister, mother, girlfriend, or wife, all I have to do is reason with her and if she is convinced then great, if not, well I have done my duty for her sake.
The misunderstanding of the Veil Issue even stretches further. A while ago I was hearing the news about the issue of religion in France, and I was shocked at the misunderstanding of the concept of the veil. It is in no way similar to wearing a cross which you can hide under your t-shirt, or showing any religious sign as a declaration or because of faith. It is part of practicing one’s faith, and it is dear to many people’s hearts. And as someone mentioned why should there be a problem with women wearing veils as long as they do not interfere with your life.
Another point which is the connection between Muslims and other people is the fact that Muslims are asked to spread the message, by well presenting their religion, speech, and advice. Unfortunately many Muslims use UnIslamic ways which can hurt other people and reflect badly on their religion. Muslims should spread the message out of love for others and as a favor to other humans, because for example if you read a good novel or watch a good movie won’t you recommend them to someone dear or close to you? Won’t you buy a nice gift or give advice for someone because you care abut them and want to make them happy or better? What if you believe that a thing is connected to someone’s fate, life, or afterlife won’t you want to do them a favor and tell them about it? It’s logical rather than religious I believe.
Unfortunately nowadays many Muslims take a wrong UnIslamic way in doing so. And on the other hand nonMuslims sometimes view the extremists methods and generalize that to all Muslims. Or they are scared of someone trying to convert them from one belief to another so they engage all defense mechanisms against the Muslim (This is also logical to happen) and sometimes the defense mechanism goes too far as hurting or cursing which in turn gives the Muslim a sense of hatred from the other.
Another issue which many of us were shocked by lately is the cartoons. I as a human being feel that it is rude and ugly and even filthy to make fun of something dear to someone. Even freedom of speech has its limits. I as a Muslim have never insulted what is dear to other beliefs, because such an act is inhumane and it goes against my religious beliefs. Even if as a Muslim I am irritated by what the crusades did or what many did throughout history in the name of Jesus, my beliefs teaches me that this was not the message of Jesus, and that those people who committed the ugly acts were misinformed and that I should not brand them, and make fun of what is dear to them but rather if I have a different point of view, to try and communicate and reason with them and maybe try to convince them of my point of view. On the other hand the unmeasured and irrational reaction of many Muslims served whom ever wanted to show the twisted image of Islam. While I saw many Muslims crying, sad, and angry because their beloved Prophet was made fun of, I saw many others burning flags and destroying streets and houses, and what did the latter do good to Islam, Nothing.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I think that the problem lies on both sides. Many Muslims need to understand that many things cannot and should not be solved by force. And that It is really critical how they present themselves to other. It is also important that Muslims inform others of why they have to do what they do, like wearing veils, or refraining from committing certain acts which are considered normal nowadays but are prohibited b Islam, and most important show the difference between real Islam and extremism. On the other hand, Non Muslims need not to generalize; they should not make fun of Islam, or get angry when they see veiled women. Non Muslims need to differentiate between a holy religion and the way of life of the people of the second largest religion in the world and the acts of some lunatics who are committing crimes in the name of Islam. Moreover if Muslims wanted to live in a non Muslim country they should abide by the constitutions of those countries, and if they felt that something is not right for them, they should communicate that and try to convince others that their case should be taken into consideration. At the same time the countries should learn more about Islam at least so that they won’t offend Muslims unintentionally, and they should treat Muslims if they chose to accept them in their countries as individuals with rights, beliefs, and concerns. It is a bit of tolerance from both sides (mutual adaptation).

My second post is about Arabs and the Western World, but for now i have to relax for a while :) maybe try to finish Half Life 2: ep. 1

Thank you, and have a nice day

.M.

AbdulKarim said…

For example, it has now become fashionable to criticize, ridicule, and mock islam or muslims just like it is trendy to eat organic food. If you are a politician and looking for a higher post or running for elections, all you have to do is criticize muslims (just like Jack Straw did).

Good. It’s high time that started happening among the fashionable in London and elsewhere in Europe.

Muslims living in European countries need to be taken down a peg, ideologically and politically. They need to stop being PC immune from critique of various kinds, including ridicule.

Distinctions need to be made, between Muslims attracted to European values (or many of them), and those that insist on fully alienated Middle Eastern ones. The latter perhaps should stay in the Middle East even if the pay’s not as good. Tough. Make a choice and expect consequences including trying to fit into your new country – as many of course do, including I’m sure the vast majority of Muslim readers of this blog.

It’s high time that Europeans started reasserting their own culture including in many (not all) respects on those that chose to live among them for economic reasons, or to escape tyranny back home. No arranged marriages whether or not it has religious sanction. Tough. No cousin marriage is fine if that’s the rule for others. And so on.

Lots of tolerance is good. Perfect tolerance to threatening or bad behavior and a refusal to at least in some ways fit into your host society isn’t.

NY City

M. (AKA Anonymous):

Sorry, mate, but you forgot some important points. Moderate Muslims usually do (so do extremist Muslims when they’re doing their Dawa or trying to mislead infidels - I do not presume that you’re an extremist using Taqiyya).

One of the pillars of Islam is Jihad. And as a Muslim, I am sure you’ve read the Quran and know full well that Jihad is not a fluffy new-agey quest for self-improvement.

Death penalty for homosexuals and adulterers (including rape victims, in many interpretations) and other “crimes”.

Mutilation as punishment.

An obligation to beat one’s wife. Yes, it’s after not allowing her to sleep in your bed and all that. It’s still an OBLIGATION to physically assault your wife.

Women are worth half a man, for all purposes. Dhimmis are worth half a Muslim, etc.

And of course, the lovely Sura 9:29 - an obligation to force all non-Muslims to convert, die (if not “people of the book”) or be something akin to slaves (if “people of the book”). Eternal war against all non-Muslims.

And that’s just the very tip of the iceberg…

Oh, and since the Quran is divine and perfect, these rules aply always, forever and everywhere.

How, exactly, can you be a good Muslim in the West as we know it? Each and every one of the religious obligations outlined above is a deal-breaker - and as I said, this is just the tip of the iceberg. The West cannot adapt to or accept any of these things and remain the West.

There is no Islamophobia… just like it’s not paranoia if they’re really after you.

Mustapha said–

Europeans are starting to discover that maybe, after all, Muslims are not like them. What took them so long?

The answer is very simple. Ideology. Dogma. The soft socialist/anti-imperialist anti-racist ideology of multiculturalism. Which became quite extreme by the 90’s not just in University circles but throughout much of the media and left parties everywhere. People don’t give up or much modify these sorts of identity structuring beliefs easily. It takes crisis of some sort, often over an extended period.

And the change is only just beginning. The hold of this way of thinking remains extremely strong in elite and left circles. (Not that I’m advocating the polar opposite (which can indeed look like extreme nationalism/fascism) – rather a balanced, pragmatic, empirical view. There’s nothing wrong with a tolerant culture setting limits, and as well, rather preferring it’s own culture in it’s homeland, and expecting other groups to fit in in some sort of mutually acceptable and benefical synergistic way. (Unlike an awful lot of e.g. Pakistani esp. second generation Muslims in Britain, and N. Africans in France and the Netherlands.)

As well, it’s not so much that Europeans haven’t realized that there were cultural differences – it’s just that the leftist view holds that they aren’t important in any fundamental way, and as well will tend to fade rapidly away unless the ‘have’ ‘oppressors’ (aka ruling class, majorities, whites, etc.) bar the way.

A lot of the problem is the excessive amounts of self criticism Euros direct at themselves or more usually western civilization generally and especially the current international Western / capitalist top dog, the US. It’s thoroughly unbalanced and, ironically, ahistorical despite claims to the contrary. Oppressive and supremacist as compare to WHO exactly in world history, especially when the comparative society was in a similar economic / technological / military position?

I’m not coming from a right wing (within the US constellation) perspective, though it may sound like it, because I am indeed anti-leftist (mostly because I’m anti-dogma generally). I’m also certainly opposed to much of what the Zionists or the religious right wants. U.S. centrist, but not by way of triangulation, by way of pragmatism, as I see it anyway. (Tax cuts on the rich and really high earners like me need to be rolled back. And yes, Iraq has been a disaster and it’s time to start leaving. All the elections have happened and yet the gov’t commands no real loyalty for the polity as a whole that cost anyone anything. A brutal ethnic cleansing, civilian punishing sort of civil war is inevitable. A strong man (or several) is going to emerge. It appears to be the level of society/culture they’re at. Liberal democracy is about being willing to lose elections and peacefully follow those that were elected, or if you win, dealing with the opposition in ways you hope they’ll deal with you when you lose, not just in trying to vote your tribe to supremacy, and supporting guerilla militias if that fails.)

Dear “The Raccoon”

1- Please allow me to correct you concerning Jihad as a pillar of Islam. The 5 pillars of Islam are: 1) Faith (declaration of faith), 2) Prayer, 3) The ‘Zakat’ (giving money to the poor and needy), 4) The Fasting, 5) Pilgrimage (Hajj).
The “Jihad” (Meaning: to strive, moreover; exertion, effort, diligence, fighting to defend one’s life, land, and religion) has many sublevels, only one which is fighting, There is the Jihad with one’s money to help the poor and make society a better place, there is the Jihad of the soul; which is to prevent one’s self from whatever He/She is forbidden from, or which hurts one’s self or may cause harm to others (and this is called the greater Jihad), and there is The Jihad (which means Fighting) which is for some odd reason always considered the only form amongst debaters. (You might tell me that’s because it is all you have been seeing from some Muslims, and I tell you Please, don’t generalize what maybe 5% of 1.25 Billion Muslims are doing, and try to know more about what you are arguing against). The word Mujahid (the person who does Jihad) can be associated with a man who is working hard to feed his family, or a person overcoming pressure to go through a tough situation, all of those are Islamic meanings for Jihad. I am not saying Muslims aren’t asked to fight for their religion but that is requested in case they have been attacked or their religion have been attacked. Even during battles Muslims are ordered to maintain great discipline, avoiding injury to the innocent and use only the minimum force needed. Striking a blow in anger, even in battle, was prohibited. The prisoners of war were to be treated in a humane fashion. Unfortunately the one’s committing crimes in the so called name of Islam have no idea of what real Islam is.
“Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but don’t transgress limits; for God loves not the transgressor. And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.” (Qur’an, Sura# 2: 190-193)
2- As for the death penalties and mutilation as punishment: These laws cannot be applied unless the whole Islamic constitution and way of life is being functional (in a certain country for instance). Most Muslims agree that even in Saudi Arabia the death penalties and punishments should not be practiced even nowadays because even there some laws have changed through time (mostly made stricter) thus the Islamic law isn’t completely taking effect to give balance on the other side of the equation. So you should not punish someone who doesn’t know or isn’t practicing a law in general by means stated by that low because that would be unjust.
With respect to adulterers the Quran states: “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (Quran 4: 15, 16)
3- With respect to the subject of the man punishing his wife: Yes it has been mentioned in the Quran and the Hadith. “As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, (1) Admonish them, (2) refuse to share their beds, (3) beat them; but if they return to obedience seek not against them means of annoyance: For Allah is Most High, Great. (4) If you fear a break between them, appoint two arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers; If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation” (Quran 4:34-35). As for the Hadith: “In case they are guilty of open lewdness you may leave them alone in their beds and inflict slight punishment. If they are obedient to you, do not seek against them any means of annoyance”. But that doesn’t give the man an Obligation to beat their wives, it is even strictly wrong for such an action to be taken unless in the above mentioned situations. Furthermore the Holy Quran states: “O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good” (Quran 4: 19). Another Hadith states: “The believers who show the most perfect faith are those who have the best character and the best of you are those who are best to their wives”.
4- In regards to the point of women being worth half a man: In case of inheritance for instance many think that because Muslims are instructed to give women half what a man gets, implies that women are considered inferior. Women are granted half in such a case because men are ‘Obliged’ and totally responsible for supporting his family, getting food, and paying all what is needed. So when a man gets double of what a woman gets and he is responsible for all his households the extra he got goes for his wife and family. While a woman is in no way responsible for even a slightest contribution if she did not personally want to, and thus when she gets half, and when she gets married her husband is responsible for payments for his wife and family and thus there is balance. Moreover a man should legally agree to pay the woman a certain amount of money they both agree on before marriage in case someday they were divorced, so the woman won’t be left with nothing.
5- Sura (9, 29) translates as: “Fight those who believe neither in Allah (God) nor the Last Day (Judgment Day), nor hold (forbid) that which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” The “Jizya” is an amount of money which non Muslims living in a Muslim country (where the whole Islamic law is in effect) should pay to the state. An example of this is Spain when Muslims were in charge of it centuries ago.

The Suras “verses” in the Quran are complimentary & the Quran should be taken as a whole in order to be able to know what rules fit to what situation. For example there might be orders given in a certain verse, in which some exceptions are stated in another verse. This doesn’t mean that the latter cancels the former but rather complete it to more fit the situation. On the other hand, as I have mentioned before, “some” rules cannot be adopted unless some other rules and/or the Shari’aa (Islamic way of life) are in effect in a certain situation or country, for there to be justice and equality. So for example one can’t take the punishment rules and start performing them at his own liking with no regard to the rest of what the Quran states. And such rules as those of punishment are state rules not individual directions for an individual’s daily life.

I believe that Muslims can live in a non Muslim country and still practice their faith without causing any change to that country’s system. They can pray, Pay money for the poor of the Muslims and Non-Muslims (for there is no problem with helping non-Muslim less fortunate people), Fast, Go to pilgrimage which is in Saudi Arabia (and has nothing to do with foreign countries, Read the Quran at their homes and/Mosques. They can enjoy life without drinking alcohol and/or not being in a place where there is Alcohol. And not eating pork, or doing any of the forbidden stuff, for mainly most of them are related to the individual. But with respect to things which are not understood by that country, for instance the Importance of wearing a veil for women, I think that should be communicated to the country’s authorities, stressing on the importance of the subject matter. I know many other differences are found but most if not all of them are on an individual or family level and they have nothing to do changing a whole country to fit Muslims.

The only problem with real Muslims is, I think, that they are not making their voices heard much, and the attention of the world is focused on the terrorists who are hurting Islam as much as they are hurting innocent lives.

I am not a moderate Muslim nor am I an extremist Muslim. I am a “Muslim” who is sad of seeing murderers killing in the name of Islam, Hurting innocent people everywhere in the name of a religion of peace, and hurting my religion. Why is it I ask, that the world do not look at people like me, but rather look at the evil criminals then think all Muslims are like that. They are the ones winning if we keep such attitudes, Islam and the west should find common grounds against such people, before they drag everyone into a never ending circle of violence.

Thank you so Much

.M.

.M -

Thank you for the reply.

I have read some of the ahadith and all of the Quran (using respectable, “official” translatio
ns) to try and understand Muslims. I have studied Islamic history and jurisprudence for the same reason.

Everything you say is true… on one hand. On the other hand, quite a bit of theological gymnastics is needed in order to live peacefully as a Muslim, respecting non-Muslims. The simplest and most straightforward interpretation of both the Quran and ahadith paints a violent, imperialistic, barbaric, misogynistic, intolerant and downright bloody horrible picture. Moreover, most Muslims have never read the Quran because they don’t know Arabic. Many of those that know Arabic are illiterate. Most of the knowledge of Muslims about Islam comes from (usually) psychotic and barbarous clerics.

You are, I am afraid, from a minority among Muslims. Frankly, to many Muslims you’re probably an infidel. I am not surprised that I do not hear many Muslim voices crying out against terrorism (even if the absolute majority of casualties of terrorism are Muslims). I am not surprised that these few voices are drowned in a the massive roaring of hatred from the other Muslims.

Frankly, we’re all buggered, m’fraid. “They” are winning because the majority of Muslims seem to happily agree with “them”. Both facts on the ground and polls in the air prove it, again and again and again. Moreover, “they” are much easier to agree with than you.

Good luck.

The Raccoon.

Thanks for sharing