I think you guys need to learn how to help yourselves. If you are constantly bailed out from the consequences of harboring terrorists, you’ll never work up the guts to kick them out.

Personally, I am sick of ungrateful third worlders getting pissy about how my gov’t spends MY TAX MONEY to help you.

I think the idea is that he will helpyou build an economy and a life worth protecting, rather than just more handouts. I think that with the UN turning worthless, there will be more war, and I don’t want to see my money wasted if it is going to be bombed again.

Take it and say thank you.

In french they call it “MENDIANTS ET ORGEUILLEUX”

@ mr smartenthanyou

You talk of “ungrateful third worlders”.

But “ungrateful third world” does not apply to Lebanon at all. First, Lebanon isn’t a third world country. Second, I would rather associate the Lebanese with words such as “vibrant”, “resilient”, “contagiously energetic”. “Ungrateful” is not a word that fits in here.

Mustapha is right, the best support for Lebanon is investing into the private sector.
Investing now can even be clever in terms of financial returns.

Mustafa,

“Hezbollah which, remember, recruits its foot soldiers by being generous in social welfare.”

I think you need to rethink some of your analysis on Hezbollah; they do not recruit their foot soldiers in this way. The social welfare may be an indirect contribution to some soldiers’ decision to join, but it is too trivial.

If you are constantly bailed out from the consequences of harboring terrorists, you’ll never work up the guts to kick them out.

That’s such a sweeping statement, I don’t even know where to begin in answering it. Unfortunately it’s one of those situations where the answer is more complicated than the question, and the answer is probably not what you want to hear

Personally, I am sick of ungrateful third worlders getting pissy about how my gov’t spends MY TAX MONEY to help you.

Of course, just like in Iraq, where your tax money went to help, er…Haliburton and Bechtel.

YOUR TAX MONEY btw is used to further American interests and provide a stable environment for US companies to trade. Money well spent, no?

I think the idea is that he will helpyou build an economy and a life worth protecting, rather than just more handouts.

Handouts is not what the Lebanese are after as Mustapha said in his post

Anyone else wondering about Mr Smarter than You’s comment all the way at the top should check out his blog. His interests include guns and his latest post is “Democrats are traitlors”

That explains everything

BTW, Martin Indyk who Mustapha references above is a Clinton era official. Guess that makes him a traitor too…

Dirk, I don’t know what kind of sissy you are, but MANY Americans are target shooters, hunters, and yes, people who own guns for self defence. Having an interest in guns is not unusual, or at least not for those of us who don’t live in big liberal cities.

And yes, democrats are traitors. They appeased the soviets, now they try to appease the terrorists.

ps If my tax dollars go to stabilize some 3rd world country, I would expect to see a return on it, AND a little less backstabbing. IN the case of Lebanon, I think providing aid before the war is over is stupid, and will prolong the suffering.

a traveller: Whatever you associate Lebanon with, it is 3rd world, thanks to it’s muslim population and muslim neighbors. It could be better, but only if they clean house.

@ mr smarterthanyou

I wonder if you have ever been in a real third world country.
Ask Mustapha, he lives in Ghana, he will be able to point out lots of differences. Illiteracy, absence of proper roads, lack of medical health care, 90% of the population living from subsistence agriculture, child labour, many people dying from easy-to-cure infectious diseases, those are the type of characteristics that are typical for third world countries. None of them apply to Lebanon. Lebanon is a well-developed country, unlike neighbouring Syria.

If Lebanon is third world then big parts of the US (especially in the cities) are also third world.

I’ve been to: Mexico, Canada, Thailand, Hong Kong, Phillipines, Singapore, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Ukraine, Russia, Lived in Germany.

I’ve also taught HS Geography, and am “Highly Qualified” under us education law(NCLB) to teach it.

Lebanon is sliding into the crapper, and has been for 30? years? If not for foreign aid, Lebanon would have many of the characteristics of Ghana. The point is, if I have to pay taxes so that we support places like Lebanon, I prefer that they take responsibility for themselves as much as possible, and learn to pay for their own mistakes. As long as the US and EU bail them out, they will not learn their lessons. I hope I am wrong, because it would be really cool to have a peaceful Israel and a peaceful Lebanon driving stability in the area. But Lebanon will not know peace uless the people change. It would also help if the cream of the Lebanese crop didn’t run away to live elsewhere.

Smarterthanyou,
A rather a wide spectrum of places you have been, yet I can’t fathom how your idea is so narrow to address such a side of the issue. I would like to hear your opinion maybe, or your position or feelings about your tax dollars used to support Israel that bombed the country who seem to be ungrateful to your tax money. I bet you can get the data and compare how much tax dollars went to Israel, which eventually went to kill Arabs or turn them into refugees.
Maybe you hear a lot about Muslims’ hatred to the West, but this is a result of the actions of the slew of US administrations past and present.
50 years ago, the US was admired in this part of the world (and was a natural ally) and the billions in tax dollars that went to Israel seem to have changed the balance.
I guess the US had created a monster situation, and now you seem to feel that you need to give you tax money to have Israel as an ally in the region of ferocious freedom haters. People in the region didn’t start out with a negative views towards the US, unfortunately it is the US that had paid its way into this predicament by supporting oppressors of the Arab population, or Persian for that matter (Israel, Saddam, Mubarak, the Shah of Iran, and the count goes on).
I believe you could have been richer in terms of tax money, and the Middle East more peaceful had the US governments been more responsible. I hope you take the time to look at this objectively without taking it as somebody’s attempt in getting back at you.

anon,

Regarding muslims hating the west, muslims hate anyone who doesn’t belong to their sect. Look at a map of world conflicts. Muslims who cannot get along with anyone else are responsible for 90% of them. Is the slaughter in Sudan, or Somolia Muslims vs. US? No, just more barbarous muslim hatrid and domination. How about Malaysia, Thailand? Is that in response to the US support of Israel’s survival? Phillipines? Morocco? Nigeria? Kashmir? Muslims are acting like bloodthirsty animals all over the world, so blaming everything on Israel is a shallow lie.

You arabs/persians/muslims need to get over Israel. It was a non-national area when they started buying land, and once they began to rejuvinate the land, the sheiks decided to try to take it back, and they manipulated the locals to help. The refugees are refugees because they RAN AWAY assuming that the jews would do to them what they planned to do to the jews!! Since then, the muslims have been too proud to admit that they were wrong, and that having Israel there was really good for them. The lives of arabs improved as more western jews moved in, but the dictators that rule most arabs hold you down.

As far as my tax $ going to them, I agree with that. Otherwise, our petro$ that are going to the barbarian nations around them would have been used to wipe them out. If you muslims would stop attacking them, they would be the best neighbors that you have. But foolish arab pride stands in the way. Arabs living in Israel have more freedom and human rights than arabs living anywhere else in the region. How do you account for that?

Israel did not turn anyone into refugees. Jordan abandoned the West Bank. Egypt abandoned Gaza. Only Jordan will give Palestinians citizenship, but even that is not unlimited. How can you accuse a nation that is attacked by homocidal maniacs of causing the refugee problem? Heck, Barak tried to give the Palestinians 90% of what they wanted, but the answer was suicide bombings and attacks on women and children.

Palistinians are refugees for 3 reasons:
They were used by other arabs to go after israel.
They are being used now to make israel look bad.
They are such a pain in the butt that even Jordan and Egypt don’t want to try to control the West Bank and Gaza, and ithey are more profitable as talking points for arab dictators seeking to avoid examination of their own records. The “rally around the common enemy” thing.

I hope that the arguments that I laid out show that I have looked at this objectively and rationally. Can you respond to my points?

Regarding support of dictators, that is a good point.

Saddam. We gave him limited support because that twit Carter let Khomeni humiliate us. We wanted Saddam to kick Iranian ass.

The Shah. Seriously, he was much better for the Iranian people than the theocracy that replaced him.

Mubarak. Sadly, too many in the west believe in “realpolitik”. But sometimes you have to chose one evil over another (I guess saddam vs khomeni was the same deal).

Israel as an oppressor of arabs? Does Israel oppress arabs in Israel? No. Do they reach out and oppress arabs of neighbor-states? No. They went into Lebanon after being attacked, and no honest or reasonable person can say that is wrong. Some say the oppress the Palestinians, but they want a Palestinian state, but the Pals use all territory given to them (they never had any before, so the land is a GIFT from Israel) to attack. Responding to attack is not oppression. Has Israel made mistakes? Yes. But are they as bloodthirsty and oppressive as their enemies? Heck no.

Look at it this way: a muslim in Israel is free to practice his religion. Non muslims are free to convert to Islam. A jew or christian could expect harassment and abuse in ANY ME country, with Lebanon being a partial exception. If a muslim tried to convert to christianity in 80% of islamic countries, he would be punished/killed by the state. Who opresses who?

Mustapha,

are you seriously considering Martin Zion Indyk’s opinion on how to rebuild Lebanon? *puke*

@ mr smarterthanyou

Thanks for the list of countries you have been to, but I am surprised to see that you have not been to either Lebanon or Israel. How come that you have such strong opinions about these countries and yet have never visited them?

@ mr smarterthanyou

“If not for foreign aid, Lebanon would have many of the characteristics of Ghana”

I don’t know the exact figures but as far as I know very little foreign aid normally goes to Lebanon. As far as I know most of the rebuilding since 1990 has been financed by Saudi private investors.

As for your tax money going to other countries, of course it’s your right to have your opinions about that, it’s also your tax money after all. But do you know that the US is literally at the bottom of all 22 official donors of foreign aid? The US spends 0,14% of its GNP on foreign aid, Norway 0,92%, and there are 20 countries in between.

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