can’t even begin to describe the pictures and the images I am seeing on T.V. right now. There are no adjectives, no words, nothing that would give justice to what I am witnessing at this moment.

How can the world remain silent still? How can people be so insensitive, so cruel!

I hope they never find peace!

That is peace of mind, internal peace etc…

I just hope.

“To Israelis: Before believing your IDF’s bullshit about Hezbollah hiding in that building…“

Do I understand correctly that you believe your anger is all that is necessary to prove that Hezbollah was NOT using that building?  You’re pissed so it’s not true that Hezbollah was using that site for offensive operations?
Is that how that works?

I’m not at all happy with an Israeli offensive that seems to be killing more civilians than Hezbollah.
But, your argument doesn’t work for me either.

I am without words. Absolutely horrified. Hell seems to be a better place than this. Satan seems to be more moral than the Israelis.

South Lebanon is a war zone. It was declared as a war zone by the Hezbollah acts. If you want to avoid civilian casualties you can choose one of the alternatives; take the Hezbollah out or take the civilians out. Now, what would it be?
Abu Yotam.

i’m gravely concerned about your response, mustapha, and i hope it is a knee-jerk one:

must the death of civilians mean that more should die? that no talks should ensue? that hopes of peace be quenched?

i’m unhappy when a civilian dies. i’m extremely unhappy when scores die. but i’m despaired when people say “lets fight until the last drop of blood”.

(can’t say i blame you though).

Manifestation à Toulouse (France) ce lundi 31 juillet à 18 heures (départ Place du Capitole)

Pour dénoncer l’agression israélienne contre le Liban et la Palestine et manifester notre solidarité avec les peuples libanais et palestinien, nous organisons cette manisfestation dans le cadre d’une journée d’action française et européenne.

Halte à l’agression israélienne contre le Liban et la Palestine occupée

Depuis le 25 juin en Palestine et le 12 juillet au Liban l’armée israélienne mène une campagne de destruction massive dans les deux pays. Rien n’est épargné par les bombardements intensifs et systématiques – ponts, routes, hôpitaux, écoles et habitations- Sur le plan humain, des centaines de morts, des familles entières décimées, des milliers de blessés et des dizaines de milliers de personnes sont contraintes à l’exode. Une tragédie humaine se déroule depuis de nombreuses années et plus intensément en ce moment au Liban et en Palestine. La politique de la terre brûlée pratiquée par Israël, et la menace contre la Syrie et l’Iran risquent d’embraser toute la région.

Devant cette agression, les États-Unis affichent leur soutien politique, militaire, économique inconditionnel à l’État d’Israël. Quant au reste de la communauté internationale- l’Union Européenne en tête- elle demeure silencieuse aux crimes de guerre commis par Israël.

Nous ne pouvons pas accepter :
- la destruction de Liban et de Palestine,
- la banalisation des crimes de guerre,
- l’inaction de la communauté internationale.

Nous exigeons :
- le retrait total d’Israël des territoires palestiniens et libanais occupés,
- la levée du blocus terrestre, maritime et aérien imposé au Liban et en Palestine occupée, notamment la bande de Gaza,
- l’arrêt immédiat de l’agression israélienne et un cessez le feu immédiat,
- l’obligation pour Israël de réparer les dégâts causés par son armée au Liban et en Palestine,
- l’arrêt de la coopération militaire et scientifique avec Israël,
- la libération de tous les prisonniers palestiniens et libanais détenus dans les prisons israéliennes,
- l’ouverture des négociations sous l’égide des Nations Unies dans le cadre d’une conférence internationale sur la base des résolutions de l’ONU avec la participation de tous les pays et autorités de la région,
- que le gouvernement français défende ces positions au niveau européen et international.

I wander if that would be your response if hiz were to succeed in bombing an israeli building causing many casualties, I suppose not.

Abu Yotam,

… not everybody can leave just because the IDF said so …

… besides they are being hit on the way out too which makes leaving not a better option at all.

Mustapha,

You wrote “but not being able to move because the beasts next door refuse to allow cranes to come and remove the rubbles.”

Do you mean that Hezbullah isn’t allowing cranes to come in and help rescue the injured? That doesn’t sound very morally clear to me. That makes it sound like Hezbullah wants more civilian casualties. That would not surprise me.

The IDF claims that the buildings were being used to shoot rockets that killed 18 people in Israel and wounded hundreds more. They warned civilians again and again to get out because they were going to hit Qana. Why didn’t the civilians leave? If they chose not to leave, they’re just plain stupid. If Hezbullah didn’t let them leave, there goes your moral clarity again. Are you suggesting that the IDF didn’t tell people to leave? If not, what do you expect the IDF to do? Keep letting Israelis get killed because Hezbullah hides behind civilians? At some point that has to stop.

The Geneva Convention prohibits the disproportionate use of force, that is, an attack on a military target “which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life” when “excessive.” But the Convention is clear that the presence of “civilians shall not be used to render . . . areas immune from military operations. . . . in attempts to shield military objectives from attack.” In other words, at some point, even Hezbullah cannot hide behind civilians. How else do you suggest that Israel put a stop to the indiscriminate rocket attacks on its cities?

(repost from another blog, slightly modified)

so if there were any HA militants there, would it make the killing more justified?

(maybe according to international law, but i give a hoot about that)

and if there weren’t any, would it make the deaths of civilians more sorrowable?

people can argue about the honor, about their rage, about laws, about who’s wrong and who’s right, but they keep forgetting one thing:

a dead body is a dead body. nothing brings back the dead.

the only thing that can truly give honor and respect to the dead, is if they died for peace.

so mustapha, do more people need to die now, so lebanon and israel will “get even”?
or so lebanon will never shake hands with israel?

a death of a civilian makes me sad. the death of scores of civilians make me deeply sad for the waste of precious god’s gift.

but a desire for venegance and rejection of peace makes me feel despair. the only way to prevent this from ever happening again, is to make peace.

let us all wish that the children that died in qana today will be the last children to die such a horrible death in the middle east. it is our responsibility to them, and to the rest of the world.

One thing: I hope Olmert presents official excuses for the victims.
Failing to do so will have devastating results.

Let me add too, that IDF did in fact shower the region with leaflets inviting civilians to leave the area, BUT:
- many of the civilian vehicules which tried to flee the area were targeted by the IDF.
- many of those who are left have no choice, as they have no cars
- many of those who are left have cars, but no fuel. IDF targetted most of the fuel pomps.

So, yes, it is absolutely NOT enough to ask the residents to leave, and this clearly does not disengage israel’s responsibility from this horrible massacre. Hizbullah neither, but israel certainly doesn’t have clean hands in this neither.
They are both to be held responsible.

A shame !!

It’s time to act now. The world must stop the IDF and force Israel to a agree with a cease fire. I think Rice - who is in Jerusalem now - has understood this. The American government can not support a bunch of massmurderers for much longer. This is defintely hurting US interest. Not only in the region, but elsewhere in the world as well.

There’s an intresting article in Foreign Policy, a magazine about international politics on the influence Jews and Israeli’s have on US foreign policy concerning the Middle East. I think both Harvard professors Mearsheimer and Walt are right when they state that influence is huge. Somehow the Americans let the Jews control their foreign policy concerning Middle East matters. That has got to stop. It’s not in America’s interest.

As for the IDF deliberatly targetting civilians. How can anyone doubt that? You can’t fire a katusya missile from inside a building. The guys who fired those missiles can hide inside the building, but is it legitimate to destroy a building full of innocent refugees, women and children to take out a few Hezbollah fighters? And yes, the IDF warned people to leave, but I have two thing to say about that. First of all many people don’t have the means to flee their towns and villages and are stuck in the warzone. Second, people who flee are being targetted by the IDF while they flee. The burned-out cars on roads all over the south full of dead innocent civilians, sometimes whole families, are proof the IDF kills civilians in a deliberate way. What a sick country!

about twenty Israeli civilians have been killed in northern Israel since the start of the war. Around five hundred Lebanese civilians have been killed in the whole of Lebanon. Israel attacked Lebanon first after Hizbollah kidnapped two soldiers and killed a few more. SOLDIERS. NOT CIVILIANS. The job of a soldier is war. A soldier takes risks. A non combatant civilian is innocent. Humanitarian workers are innocent.
TERROR IS TERROR.

As for Israel targetting that UN observation post: why investigate that bombing? That post was there for decades, the guys inside that post and at the UN headquarters contacted the Israeli’s TEN f#cking times to tell them they were there and what do the Israeli’s do? They drop a PRECISION guided bomb on that UN observation post. Now, they can’t deny they didn’t know the post was there and they can’t deny the bombing wasn’t on purpose, because they dropped a PRECISION guided bomb. Such bombs are accurate to about 10 meters. They did it on purpose because they want those UN observers to leave the area and sadly they succeeded in that mission.

Wars these days are fought through the spin doctors and the media reports just like they’re fought in a conflict zone.

As much as i wish Hiz defeats the apartheid state, I think Hiz should take the moral high ground and declare a ceasefire and join the Lebanese government as act of national solidarity:
1- It has already demonstrated that the mighty army of Israel hasn’t defeated the Hiz.

2- Gain international recognition and distance itself from the “terrorist” label bestowed upon it by the beacon of freedom and hypocrisy USA

This is another act of savage proportions by the war criminals of israel. I would like to know if the bomb was one of those laser guided missiles shipped O so quickly by the beacon of freedom and hypocrisy USA via its lapdog former imperial mess maker England.

What’s interesting is that today I attended a public rally in Melbourne, Australia for a ceasefire whilst the pro Israeli lobby was meeting at a nearby synagogue to show solidarity with Israel.

Mustapha,
I know after today’s horrible incident it is not the time for such a question, but feel free to answer some other time.

On the first day of this assault jamal said:

” We’re All Hezbollah
Whether we like it or not. “

and you commented:

“Hezbollah might have fooled a few souls (linking to his post) , but not others.”

So what do you think today? Wasn’t he the first to recognize that whether we like it or not, the outcome of Israel’s action was inevitable. It pushed all the moderates, away from Israel’s position and -even if against their will- towards Hizbollah.

TAC

“What’s interesting is that today I attended a public rally in Melbourne, Australia for a ceasefire whilst the pro Israeli lobby was meeting at a nearby synagogue to show solidarity with Israel.”

why is that interesting?

Action and inaction have consequences.

The Taliban harbored Al Quaeda in Afghanistan. Many Lebanese are harboring Hezbollah.

In both actions by the Coalition and by Israel, innocent civilians were killed–mainly because the terrorists have absolutely no morals. They persist in fighting in civilians areas. Fighters with human dignity would separate themselves from the civilian population.

In such circumstances, the people of Lebanon should kill the Hezbhollah terrorists–with guns, bombs, knives, cut glass, sticks, whatever. The Lebanese MUST kill the Hezbollah terrorists NOW. Repeat: Lebanese must kill the Hezbollah terrorists NOW. Do not delay. Please spread the word. Kill the Hezbollah terrorists now.

Given that Lebanon has failed to accomplish this, then their only possible alternative is to separate themselves from the terrorists. Do not let the terrorists follow you into civilian areas. Kill them if they attempt this.

Mustapha, only a sadist like Ms Rice can smile and shake hands with Mr Seniora while telling Israel to continue with its campaign of mass terrorisation and war crimes.

I was against his first meeting with that scum. I am glad, VERY glad that he has done what he and millions of Lebanese feel he should have done. Tell the monstrous bitch to F*CK OFF!

First of all we don’t know how many Hezbollah fighters used the cover of civilians and how many times this happened. Of course the Israeli propaganda is trying to make us believe those Hezbollah fighters are like devils and hide behind little children, journalists and observers on the ground however are having a hard time to find any evidence of such behaviour. Now, don’t get my wrong. I do believe Hezbollah occasionly uses the civilian population, but I don’t believe that is standard policy.

Furthermore it is always intresting to see how much difficulties a strong army like the IDF or the US army has with dealing with guerilla forces. They blame the guerilla’s for not fighting out in the open with them and call them cowards. That is such a dumb remark. What are they expecting? If those guerilla’s expose themselves they are easy prey. The power of a guerilla war lies in hiding for a stonger enemy and choose your own time to attack that enemy when you have the advantage over him. That’s what happened in Bint Jbul and that proves Hezbollah really masters the art of guerilla warfare.

The North American media is feeding us rations of news from Lebanon while feasting on the rants of Israeli generals and various government spokesmen du jour. And how is this for keeping TV palatable for its U.S. audience? Rather than showing us “Arab television” coverage in Qana CNN is broadcasting, in primetime tonight (Sunday), a documentary on the bombing of the American barracks in Beirut…however long ago that was! One can only imagine it is a way to keep today’s crisis interesting for the self-absorbed. Aaaaarghhhh!!!! (KC in Canada)

It is obvious to me that Hezbollah is hiding behind Geneva shield categories.

The UNIFIL people have filed numerous reports of Hezbollah near their positions. And we have seen that Hezbollah operates openly in the middle of a modern city with high rise building! This same Hezbollah brags about having thousands of rockets. What kind of f*cked up situation is this?

It would be as if the US military routinely drove around Iraq with their wives and children in their HUMVEES. And screamed about civilian casualties. Come on folks. Get real and get real fast. Your life depends on it.

I understand your feelings and have sorrow that innocent people suffer because of the acts of a few. I understand that your homeland is being attacked and that you will support any who oppose the attackers. However, I am incapable of saying what I would do in your situation.

First, I enjoy living in a unified nation with a strong central democracy that governs a large federation of states. It would be impossible for an armed militia to drag us into such a conflict because the national army does not allow independant militia. When they do arise, such as Harpers Ferry and Waco Texas, the army is quickly deployed to disarm them by whatever means needed. The population itself overwhelmingly supports this policy and so we would never find ourselves in your situation.

Second, I am a cold fish. No matter what I feel in my heart there is no action without thought. No matter how strongly flame or passion engulf my emotions they are never allowed to knowingly over-ride logic and calculation. My emotions must always pass through the filters of reasoning before they are allowed to become actions. As such, I would be analyzing what is best for my future and what is best for my children. A peaceful and propserous Lebanon would be my answer. And so no matter how strongly the fire of hatred burned it would never be able to cross the red-line and become self-destructive.

Let us examine this quest for peace and prosperity under the assumption that Israel is the major impediment:

If Israel does in fact seek to destroy or possess Lebanon then they must be defeated. But to what extent? The defeat of Israel does not need to extend past the Lebanese border in order for Lebanon to prosper. Must their defeat be military? No. Israel could have the most powerful military in the world but it will do them no good if they never cross the border. So the goal must be clearly defined. The goal is to remove Israeli militia and prevent their return.

How is this best accomplished? Military might will not do it. Lebanon is nearly destroyed and Israel has only applied a fraction of her power. It will be suicide to confront them with weapons. So, then what is Israel’s weakness? What tool is there that can allow a non-Israeli to heavily influence the nature of Israeli militia in Lebanon? Money.

The average Israeli earns $21,000 (USD) per year. Such a number is not possible without industry and international trade. This cummunity of trade is more or less defined by the G8. The rules for membership are clearly laid out. Countries who play by these rules are wealthy and countries that do not are poor. It is through this mechanism that Israel’s weakness is exposed.

Petitioning and/or demonstrating for Israel to be expelled from this community won’t work. They must be shown to be in violation of the rules. So, if you want to “defeat” Israel you need to find a way to link their presence in southern Lebanon to the existing rules of international trade. Such a linkage exists in the form of international law. Unfortunately, these rules also have loopholes. The way to “defeat” Israel is to remove their access to these loopholes. Self-defense is such a loophole. If Israel could not claim self-defense then they would be forced to choose between possession of Lebanon or economic prosperity. That is their weakness. The question then becomes, “how do I deny Israel access to the claim of self-defense regarding Lebanese territory?” If you answer this question, then you can force Israel to permanently withdraw from all Lebanese soil because failure to do so will cause them economic sufferring.

Think with your head, feel with your heart. Let your choice of actions remain loyal to both.

Qana has been attacked for three days. Overall there have been 110 aerial attacks on Qana since beginning of this war. This morning at 7:30 the AEF found missiles being shot to Israel. More than 40 katjuschas expolded in Northern Israel. Pilots spotted the launching pad just after katjushas having been shot. They saw men running from the launching pad into a three storey house, which was unplastered. The IAF bombed the house.

Who was more likely to know about the amount of civilians and children in this house? The Hezbollah or the pilots?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plMPGRhmsCA&NR

I son’t want to see more children dying. And I don’t believe this Nasrallah and his ‘fighters’ have any respect for children.

Sincerely.

Can some one please confirm whether Qana was being used to lob rockets into Israel. What are the facts?

I can understand civilians not being able to leave because of lack of resources, but we need to know for sure if Qana was being used by Hezbollah to fire rockets into Israel.

Re Lee C. ― U.S.A. Comment:

The IDF that has killed so many civilians has to proove that Hizbollah was using the building and not the whole world that it didn’t.

I am so fed up with you Israel-has-to-defend-itself-and-we-have-to-understand-people. And because the Jews are a people of victims they can not commit crimes against others. Any fight or war they will be involved in, its the others that are the criminals, anti-semits or newly terrorists. If Israel wants peace and maybe acceptance in the region, not only by the corrupt and collapsing regimes but also by the peoples of the regions, it will have to accept its limits, geographically, politically and stop where international law and conventions puts the red line for ever state. If you want normalization, start behaving “normal”!

“Pilots spotted the launching pad just after katjushas having been shot. They saw men running from the launching pad into a three storey house, which was unplastered. The IAF bombed the house.”

I cant seem to find an IAF statement that says this. Is this analysis by the Israeli media or is this word-for-word what the Israeli Army said? Because all the quotes I’ve read from the Israeli Army state that Hezbollah was launching rockets in the village and we just fired back. The quotes I have do not mention fighters running into buildings.

mustapha,
your wretched friends, the “hezbollah” - shoots missles to Israeli cities, SPECIFICALLY towards civilians, FILLING their rockets with little bullets aimed at hurting as many civilians as possible. Trouble is, Hizbollah’s crude rockets SUCK and fail to kill many civilians upon hitting their mark (they often miss), be that as it may - HIzbollah would be THRILLED if 52 Israeli babies would have died from a Katyusha, but the missles are just not accurate enough.

IDF, on the other hand, aims SPECIFICALLY at Hezbollah-targets, and WARNS nearby civilians prior to bombing. Hezbollah uses Lebanese civilians as human-shields, and fires its missles TO OUR COUNTRY (ISRAEL) from civilian structures.

We will not suffer missles at our lands. And as long as you continue to endorse Hezbolla, we shall continue to kick your asses. Period.

-Daniel

HEZ’B'ALLAH SEEKS TO KILL CIVILIANS WITH EVERY ROCKET IT FIRES

THEY HAVE CALLED FOR ISRAELS DESTRUCTION - CIVILIANS INCLUDED

THEIR CALLS OF “RESISTANCE” TO AN “ENEMY” THAT WOULDNT BOTHER YOU OTHERWISE IF ITS EXISTANCE WERE NOT THREATENED ON A DAILY BASIS

MORAL CLARITY - STOP HEZBALLAH AND ISRAEL AND LEBANON WILL BE GREAT FRIENDS

DO YOU WONDER WHY THIS IS HAPPENING TO YOU - WHEN YOU SIDE WITH A “PARTY OF GOD”

GOD DOESNT NEED A POLITICAL PARTY -OR A FLAG WITH A GUN ON IT

Make no mistake. The blood of those civilians is on the hands of the Hizb terrorists.

The cowardly pigs hide among and fire from positions interwoven with civilian populations.

May they all rot in hell very soon.

Harry,

the rules were written before we were born. It is less productive to shout against the rules than to learn them and then to use them to your advantage. This is precisely what israel has done and will continue to do. They play by the rules and manipulate the loopholes to serve the interests of Israel. You will never defeat them by shouting against the rules because the rules create global stability wheras Israel is only regional. In order to defeat them, you must deny them access to the existing loopholes. Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi have done so already. They removed Israel’s ability to claim self-defense. As such, they regained their land and denied Israel any opportunity to agress or attack. It matters not whether Israel desires to possess all or part of Egypt. The loophole has been closed and Israel has no way to re-open it. When you want to defeat an enemy, you do so by confronting their weakness instead of their strength.

War has to stop!!!Today on a newspaper i saw a photo of dead babies and children…Their eyes were still open…One kiddnapped israelist equals to hundrend dead people,to thousand injureds and to million refugges…If they had kidnap a group of them they would have to vanish the whole world???

this indeed a tragedy. and i hope it will end the violence, as both sides will understand it went too far.

but calling the israelis immoral or satans is misguided.

hezbollah is shooting at civilians ON PURPOSE, not even trying to make an excuse. how moral is that?

israel hits civilians as a collateral damage.

hezbollah is firing rockets and hiding among civilian population. how moral is that?

big difference.

Muatapha, well said.

I can’t look at the images any more. This maddness needs to stop.

Israel can never have any peace with these actions .

I am now convinced that Israel wants perpetual wars.

God help us all

Issam

w w w . h a a r e t z . c o m

——————————————————————————–

Last update - 10:44 25/07/2006
Morality is not on our side
By Ze’ev Maoz

There’s practically a holy consensus right now that the war in the North is a just war and that morality is on our side. The bitter truth must be said: this holy consensus is based on short-range selective memory, an introverted worldview, and double standards.

This war is not a just war. Israel is using excessive force without distinguishing between civilian population and enemy, whose sole purpose is extortion. That is not to say that morality and justice are on Hezbollah’s side. Most certainly not. But the fact that Hezbollah “started it” when it kidnapped soldiers from across an international border does not even begin to tilt the scales of justice toward our side.

Let’s start with a few facts. We invaded a sovereign state, and occupied its capital in 1982. In the process of this occupation, we dropped several tons of bombs from the air, ground and sea, while wounding and killing thousands of civilians. Approximately 14,000 civilians were killed between June and September of 1982, according to a conservative estimate. The majority of these civilians had nothing to do with the PLO, which provided the official pretext for the war.

In Operations Accountability and Grapes of Wrath, we caused the mass flight of about 500,000 refugees from southern Lebanon on each occasion. There are no exact data on the number of casualties in these operations, but one can recall that in Operation Grapes of Wrath, we bombed a shelter in the village of Kafr Kana which killed 103 civilians. The bombing may have been accidental, but that did not make the operation any more moral.

On July 28, 1989, we kidnapped Sheikh Obeid, and on May 12, 1994, we kidnapped Mustafa Dirani, who had captured Ron Arad. Israel held these two people and another 20-odd Lebanese detainees without trial, as “negotiating chips.” That which is permissible to us is, of course, forbidden to Hezbollah.

Hezbollah crossed a border that is recognized by the international community. That is true. What we are forgetting is that ever since our withdrawal from Lebanon, the Israel Air Force has conducted photo-surveillance sorties on a daily basis in Lebanese airspace. While these flights caused no casualties, border violations are border violations. Here too, morality is not on our side.

So much for the history of morality. Now, let’s consider current affairs. What exactly is the difference between launching Katyushas into civilian population centers in Israel and the Israel Air Force bombing population centers in south Beirut, Tyre, Sidon and Tripoli? The IDF has fired thousands of shells into south Lebanon villages, alleging that Hezbollah men are concealed among the civilian population. Approximately 25 Israeli civilians have been killed as a result of Katyusha missiles to date. The number of dead in Lebanon, the vast majority comprised of civilians who have nothing to do with Hezbollah, is more than 300.

Worse yet, bombing infrastructure targets such as power stations, bridges and other civil facilities turns the entire Lebanese civilian population into a victim and hostage, even if we are not physically harming civilians. The use of bombings to achieve a diplomatic goal - namely, coercing the Lebanese government into implementing UN Security Council Resolution 1559 - is an attempt at political blackmail, and no less than the kidnapping of IDF soldiers by Hezbollah is the aim of bringing about a prisoner exchange.

There is a propaganda aspect to this war, and it involves a competition as to who is more miserable. Each side tries to persuade the world that it is more miserable. As in every propaganda campaign, the use of information is selective, distorted and self-righteous. If we want to base our information (or shall we call it propaganda?) policy on the assumption that the international environment is going to buy the dubious merchandise that we are selling, be it out of ignorance or hypocrisy, then fine. But in terms of our own national soul searching, we owe ourselves to confront the bitter truth - maybe we will win this conflict on the military field, maybe we will make some diplomatic gains, but on the moral plane, we have no advantage, and we have no special status.

The writer is a professor of political science at Tel Aviv university.

OK this is horrible so rage at the IDF all you want.

But why no acknowledgment of why this is happening (ie. Hezbollah’s aggression and incessant rocketing)? Why no acknowldgement that the IDF is much better than what eg. Syria or Egypt would have done if the shoe were on the other foot?

- Maor

I do not intend this as an endorsement of policy or to favor one side over the other. If either side “wins” then we all lose in the end. Hezzbollah is part of Lebanon. Both Lebanon and Israel must achieve victory in their own way or we will find this cycle repeating itself again. To me victory for Lebanon means that hezzbollah becomes a contributing part of the mainstream. That they lay down their weapons and fight to strengthen rather than weaken a central Lebanese government.

Anyway, it is a well known fact that the best way to defeat a group such as Hezzbollah is to play by Hama rules. You should be thanking your lucky stars that Israel is unwilling to do to Arabs the things that both Damascus and Tehran have already done. because - to be frank - in light of hezzbollah’s missiles, the self-defense loophole could be manipulated to include Hama.

Excellent piece of writing! Ze’ev Maoz writes it the way it is and I don’t understand why people can’t see that! He explains why some people are more equal than others. Israel is allowed more and gets away with more than others.

Let’s assume for a minute here Hezbollah’s rockets would make more casualties in Israel and hundreds of Israeli women and children would be killed. The western world would go mad and would tolerate any action taken by Israel against Lebanon/Hezbollah. If they tolerate what’s going on now with only a few Israeli casulaties, I really don’t want to know what they would tolerate with hundreds of Israeli citizens killed.

Let’s assume for a minute here Hezbollah’s rockets would make more casualties in Israel and hundreds of Israeli women and children would be killed. The western world would go mad and would tolerate any action taken by Israel against Lebanon/Hezbollah. If they tolerate what’s going on now with only a few Israeli casulaties, I really don’t want to know what they would tolerate with hundreds of Israeli citizens killed.

What country would sit by idly with hundreds of rockets fired at its cities every day? France? China? Russia? USA? Iran? The low Israeli casualties are because people have gone away or hide in shelters. What group aside from Hezbollah has no bases of its own but operates only from civilian areas?

- Maor

regarding moral arguments,

morality has no meaning in war. To argue morality during war is to argue that your shit does not stink as badly as his.

Anyone who puts forth an argument based on morality is seeking to sway your opinion without regard to factual evidence or the context within which it exists. It is the pointless argument of propagandists that seek to extend rather than end the sufferring. Morality based arguments regarding acts of war are inherently an excercise in self-deception.

I can understand the deep anger of the Lebanese people. Nobody in the civilized world can accept this barbaric and unwarranted attack.

Please don’t pat yourselves on the back, Bush, Blair and Olmert supporters. The civilized world does not include any of you.

Now, Condi was playing the piano while Lebanon burned http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5217742.stm. She offered no immediate unconditional ceasefire, which is what the entire world demands. All she was more interested in was buying time for Olmert, to carry out more precision bombing.

Smart bombs, dumb bombs…what’s the difference? They are all operated by dumb people.

My deepest condolences to the Lebanese people. May God stop this insane war, and give you all the peace you so deserve.

Obsession: What The War on Terror Is Really About

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=Obsession%3A+What+The+War+on+Terror+Is+Really+About&hl=en
The world is in denial over this radical islamic enemy

“The IDF that has killed so many civilians has to proove that Hizbollah was using the building and not the whole world that it didn’t.”

I’m not sure anybody has to prove anything.  

Personally, I think Israel would not, willingly, give Hezbollah, France, the whole “immediate cease fire” brigade, such political ammunition as this.
It was so counterproductive, and so obviously counterproductive, that, if there were no Hezbollah there, then it had to be a mistake.  The Jews are not that stupid that they would do this on purpose (I suspect the bombing of the Lebanese barracks was a warning on account of Lebanese military complicity in that rocket attack on the Israeli gunboat, but this, this is just bad political consequences all way ‘round for Israel–nothing good for Israel coming out of this).  They are not stupid enough to willingly hand Hezbollah those political points. That’s my opinion on that anyway.

There will be such mistakes made in the heat of battle. It happens.

And, fighting back when attacked is normal for any nation or people.

But, my point was that outrage by our host is not proof that Hezbollah was not using the building (or the grounds) for offensive operations.  Neither would similar posturing and expressions of outrage by an Israeli (about Hezbollah customarily using civilians and even the UN contingent as hoped for “shields”) be proof that Hezbollah was actually here, this time.

I don’t intend to get diverted from that point to your point, which appears to be that Israel must prove what you want.   My point is simple, our host appears ready to insist that “the truth” is on his side just because he’s pissed off.

I understand him being pissed off, but that don’t prove jack shit.

anonymous,

my deepest condolences to both the Israeli and Lebanese citizens. May God stop this insane war and give them all the peace they so deserve.

The US is not siding against either Lebanon or Israel. It only sides against Hezzbollah. Look at the history of Hezzbollah and ask if you could realistically expect anything else? US marines who were prohibited from carrying loaded weapons were once stationed in Beruit as a peace keeping force. They were there only to prevent civil war. They got suicide bombed and … by whom? And then, what followed their withdrawal? A civil war.

If you wish the US to adopt a different attitude then you must demonstrate to them why repeating their earlier actions will not create the same result (another Lebanese civil war).

Everyone supporting this Israeli action will have to live with it the rest of their life.
IDF knows where Hisballah is, but they cannot simply go and gifht them directly without provoking a massacre. I cannot understand this, can anyone?
How can the world allow these things happen? No country can ignore UN resolutions nor international law, but Israel.

For frans
From Adelaide Now: These are the pictures that damn Hezbolla. Same story at the Herald Sun. Or perhaps this UN Press Release.

Lee, I agree to some extend with you on the point of Israel not hitting civilians in a deliberate way. However it must be said that Israel is defenitely not careful in targetting any target in the south. They target everything and if civilians are killed they simply state they told every civilian to leave.

Now that is something we should look at as well. Obviously there is a large group of civilians which were (and are) unable to flee north. They either have no money, are disabled, sick, wounded or too old. That’s why the UN wants to create so called humanitarian corridors to evacuate these people and bring aid in for these trapped civilians. Israel so far has not allowed that. They say they have, but the Lebanese government, the Red Cross and (western) journalists on the ground deny such corridors currently exist. So in short, those people are trapped, a lot of them want to leave, but can’t.

Others that were able to flee, actually did flee north. A lot of these people tell horrific stories about the Israeli airforce bombing convoys of refugees and targetting civilians. See, here’s what I mean, that pilot doesn’t give a damn. He sees a car speeding and just fires a missile at it. That’s war. If you deny that, I would really to know how on earth it possible so many Lebanese civilians have died trying to flee. Journalists are telling stories of dozens of burned out cars all along Lebanons southern roads. Sometimes dead passengers are still in there. Surely you can’t blame Hezbollah for all of this?

Mustaffa,

I cried when I heard about this tragedy. Yet I can never accept that any Israeli officer intentionaly ordered the bombing of innocent ciilians. Don’t get me wrong one minute: I think this war should stop immidietly. I think Ulmert should be forced to resign for his responsiblity for these horrors. But believe me, we are not monsters.

http://digg.com/world_news/oh_god_not_again
http://yishaym.wordpress.com/

“Surely you can’t blame Hezbollah for all of this?”

Quare:  When did I blame Hezbollah for any of what you mentioned?

Answer:  I did not.  I did not raise the issue of “blame”.  (I’m not even sure I accept your “facts” as correct, much less am I ready to assign “blame” for facts not yet established to my satisfaction.  Took a long time for the Jenin “massacres” to be disproved.)

People must understand that an immediate ceasefire won’t solve anything … an immediate ceasefire would simply be an opportunity for Hezbollah to regroup and prepare for the next round of hostilities.

What Hezbollah wants is freedom of action to attack the IDF and Israeli communities but to be guaranteed security from Israeli retaliation.

A ceasefire without disarming Hizbollah or at least an international force that would be willing to confront Hezbullah would provide Hezbullah with just the thing that they want.

anonymous 3:01,

Israel does not ignore international law. The bastards are experts at finding loopholes and manipulating international law to serve their interests. There is no nation on the planet that is more adept at following the rules while violating their intent. But the globe is more important than the region. So do not expect the rules to be changed on Israel’s account. The Arab dictators try to play the loopholes by sponsoring sub-state militia. But doing so only creates more loopholes for Israel. The dictators win by keeping the people who might rise up against them weak. You, the real people - not the Arafats and Assads, will never beat Israel with military might. Nor will you ever be more adept at manipulating international law. It’s just not going to happen. It hasn’t happened once in 60 years and it’s not going to happen now. The only way you will ever defeat them is to deny them access to the self-defense loophole.

Sub-state militias such as Hezzbollah create a huge loophole. The people who fund Hezzbollah, Hamas, Al queda, etc know this. But they blind you with hatred so that you will not notice while they kill their enemies and rob your national treasure. You should not be one of their trained dogs who barks and chases your tail. You will go around in circles of war until you stop.

“Satan seems to be more moral than the Israelis.”

Wasn’t it 10 minutes ago you were contemplating foreplay with Tel Aviv babes?

Does this mean you don’t love us anymore?

I read your blog. First you leave your country, and then you say you’ve never seen Lebanese more united.

About peace with Arabs, I’ve been taking a look at how you get along with one another in Lebanon (not to mention Iraq, once the dictator keeping it all together is removed) and I’ve got to say that the facts don’t measure up to the advertising.

You are a bunch of monsters and maniacs, and you should get your own damn house in order before you preach to us about peace.

Thank God my grandfather left Syria.

War stinks because civilians get killed. I don’t believe Israel targets civilians. I do believe it see its enemy as Hezbollah and not Lebanon. I do believe Hezbollah would put civilians in harms way for political gain as well as world sympathy. But if I were Lebanese I would feel rage….at Israel but primarily at Hezbollah. How could one not?

@ Jad Aoun:

“I cant seem to find an IAF statement that says this. Is this analysis by the Israeli media or is this word-for-word what the Israeli Army said? “

I translated what a German journalist e-mailed after the Army’s Press conference in Israel. The exact phrasing might be different due to my translation, but this is what they told him had happened this morning.

Sincerely

Lee C.
You make sense, none has proven anything and maybe no one needs to prove anything.

Untill now the only proven fact is that the IDF destroyed the building killing 50 people including 20 children.
As you say anger and rage on both sides prove nothing else.

Your argument is strong that the IDF would not willingly give that argument to their opponents. However what seems to me is that the IDF really beleive that shotting anything that might remotely be linked to Hizbollah with a 2 ton bomb is fair game. Which explains why the people fleeing a few days ago were bombed on the road (possibly hizballah running away) , the truck of medicine bombed on the highway (possibly transporting hizbollah rockets) and the UN place bombed a couple of days ago killing 4 UN service man AFTER having called the IDF 10 times to tell them the shelling was geting two close.

The IDF feels it is enough that it suspects a katyousha rocket has been launched form the vicinity to destroy everything around even if the UN or civiliand or children will be killed.

Of course in good faith they can tell you later they did not do it on purpose and they probably would not be lying. But that on its own is not enough.

A bit like when the russian a couple of years back gazzed the theater killing all the chechen rebels and all the civilians hostages inside.
Of course the act of the terrorists was criminal but also the act of the russians was criminal.

Saying there were terroists in the vicinity does not give you right to kill anyone around especially when the action of dropping a smaller bomb are acceptable (ir no Israelis one were getting killing or injurred -just cheked the report- during the cana massacre to justify a hasty response that would stop whatever whas happening at all costs )

Same goes for the “we warned civilians to flee argument” which others are using tomake the killing OK.
Setting aside the capability of those poor people to leave (bridges destroyed, no cars, no petrol stations left standing)
When hezbollah warns civilians that they will shell hayfa -as they did, probably to scare them too- it does not make it any less criminal for them to kill civilians.
The same apply to the other side. Warning Leabnese civilians doe not make killing them any less criminal.

TAC

So it is amazing how the starting point has been ignored!! When with Hiz release the two israeli soldiers?

Accountability…

Moron99, I commend your call for rational thought. However, the loophole you mention was the kidnapping and death of a handful of Israeli soldiers, i.e. combatants. However provocative Hizbollah was in attacking israeli soldiers, it is hardly an acceptable reason to bomb the whole of Lebanon knowing, I repeat knowing, that the vast majority of victims will be civilians.
You can convince yourself the US doesn’t side with Israel if you like, but I’m afraid it doesn’t wash with those who take a cold hard and rational look at the politics of the US in the region.

Yishay, I know you oppose the Israeli onslaught, but what makes you so sure an Israeli officer wouldn’t intentionally order the bombing of civilians? Are Israeli officers morally supertior to those from other states? Maybe the intention was to kill Hizbollah combatants, but the Israeli officer would have known there would be a majority of civilian deaths. In my view, there is no justification for this, particularly if you keep in mind, that the escalation of the conflict, despite what most of the media says was due to Israeli bombing of Lebanon in retaliation for the kidnap and deaths of a few of its soldiers.

There are 3 different explanations about why this happened:

1) The Israelis are evil and hate all Arabs! The “Zionist entity” gets its kicks from killing women and children so they can terrorise the population into surrendering! Sadly, this is the one the Arab street probably believes today (and actually has believed for a while)

2) The Israelis don’t really have a plan and so are targeting places with pretty scant intelligence. For Israeli public opinion they need to be seen to be doing something - anything. Horrible civillian casualties, like we saw today, are a by-product of this

3) Hezbollah is storing rockets among the civillian population. Horrible civillian casulaties, like we saw today, are a by-product of this

Explanation 1 is clearly nonsense. Say you really believe Israelis are evil and want to kill civillians. What gain is there for them in deliberately doing so?

The Israelis have been your neighbours long enough to know what happens after an incident like this.

A combination of the second and third explanations seem the most likely. Poor intelligence and random targeting (which is wrong and disproportionate) is clearly at play - after all, after two weeks, Hezbollah is still able to lob rockets into Israel. And Hezbollah is hiding among the civil population - the UN humanitarian coordinator, who also had strong words for Israel, said the same.

The reaction of the Lebanese PM is understandable. BTW check out the US media today which is taking the Rice spin that SHE cancelled the meeting!

Sure, condemn Israel today. But when the dust settles tomorrow, the need for a ceasefire will still exist, and now more than ever. This incident should be focusing our minds even more on that need.

There is direct evidence that the Hezbollah used Qana as a base of operation both in 1996 and today. UNFIL officers specifically note that rockets were fired just outside the village by Hezbollah fighters who were hiding in the village. In fact, the UN Report on the 1996 shelling of Qana makes specific mention of that fact.

Hezbollah fighters fired two or three rockets from a location 350 metres south-east of the United Nations compound. [Later], they fired four or five rockets from location 600 metres south-east of the compound. About 15 minutes before the shelling, [Hezbollah fighters] fired between five and eight rounds of 120 millimetre mortar from a location 220 metres south-west of the centre of the compound… According to witnesses, the mortar was installed there between 1100 and 1200 hours that day, but no action was taken by UNIFIL personnel to remove it. (On 15 April, a [UN Officer] had been shot in the chest as he tried to prevent Hezbollah fighters from firing rockets.)

A very similar story was told by the Christians residents of Ain Ebel village who were forced to leave thier homes due to the bombing.

“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village [in South Lebanon]. “They are shooting from between our houses.” “Please,’’ he added, “write that in your newspaper.”

As long as Hezbollah uses civilian shields while shooting rockets at Israeli villages, this will happen again. Isn’t it about time the people of Lebanon rid themselves from these monsters ? You can blame and criticize Israel all you want, but as long as their cities get bombed and soldiers kidnapped they will not stop fighting.

See my blog at http://spheradic.blogspot.com/2006/07/who-bears-responsibility-to-qana.html

.
A solution to end the war in Lebanon NOW

The Lebanese could take their fate into their own hands, and not wait for the US to tell Israel to stop (actually, we know the US has rushed and is rushing more bombs to the Israelis for the continuation of the “war”, which is clearly no more than the coldblood onslaugh by the Israelis of Lebanese civilians using US precision laser-guided bombs)

Don’t WAIT for a cease-fire!

My solution to immediately end this continuing massacre is this:

All the refugees who had fled must now rise from their shelters and, with their children, march back south, unarmed, and drive the Israelis army out of South Lebanon.

If you agree with me, then please suggest this solution by posting on all forum boards which you know.

Thank You.
.

Photos that damn Hezbollah

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons

jez,

you ignore the timeline and argue morality. At the very least, you are decieving yourself to believe that arguments of morality can affect the actions of either group. Neither Israel nor hezzbollah care about morality except as a tool to generate propaganda and retain foreign support. Israel must retain the image of morality so that their participation in the global economy will not suffer. Hezzbollah must similarly play their morality to retain the flow of money & weapons from Syria/Iran.

Truth is that IDF shit stinks just as bad as Hezzbollah shit. So why don’t we just leave the false pretense of morality out of it?

Hezzbollah attacked Israel to prove that they were still needed. Israel over-reacted because Hezzbollah acted in concert with Hamas. yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah. I do not care who is to blame, who shot who, or whose shit stinks the most. It does not matter. They all stink. As a wise man once told me, “Everyone falls into a bucket of shit sooner or later. It’s only a problem if you don’t climb out.”

1) A strong multi-cultural government in Berirut that views all citizens as equal and is sworn to protect and enrich the Lebanese people without discrimination or bias.

2) a single Lebanese militia that answers to the above government and is controlled by the civillian population via elected officials. (Anything else will probably result in civil war or genocide.)

3) long-term peace with Israel along the southern border. Neither nation crosses into the other without first obtaining written permission. No fly-overs, no kidnappings, no raids, no incursions, no suicide bombers. Each nation is willing to use force against their own citizens to protect the terms of peace. The only thing that goes across the border is farming trucks full of melons.

4) The international community keeps Israel from aggravating Lebabnon by levying economic santions if the violate Lebanese sovernity. Lebanbon empowers the international community to act against Israel by not allowing independant militias to operate on Lebanese soil (independant militias operating from Lebanese soil will give israel access to the self-defense loophole).

viola! peace irregardless of whose shit stinks the worst.

Un utilisateur anonyme a dit…

So it is amazing how the starting point has been ignored!! When with Hiz release the two israeli soldiers?

Accountability…

July 30, 2006 4:03 PM

It is indeed amazing how the starting point has been ignored!!
When will IsraHeil release the lebanese prisoners?

bearbee a dit…
Photos that damn Hezbollah

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons

I don’t really see any rocket launcher, any missile, nor any residential area.

Bearbee, Barby (and Kent), Barbie (Klaus), same shit…

I would recommend an immediate end to the war when “Sayyed” Hassan Nasrallah surrenders.

Olmert expressed deep regret for the harm inflicted on the civilians in Qana Sunday morning when at least 57 civilians - 37 of whom were children - were killed as the IAF fired missiles at a building in the southern Lebanese town.
“I express deep regret, along with all of Israel and the IDF, for the civilian deaths in Qana,” said Olmert. “Nothing could be further from our intentions and our interests than harming civilians - everyone understands that. When we do harm civilians, the whole world recognizes that it is an exceptional case that does not characterize us.”

“In contrast,” Olmert said, “Hizbullah has launched rockets with the aim of murdering innocent civilians in northern Israel.” …

Olmert said that the area was a focal point for the firing of Katyusha rockets on Kiryat Shmona and Afula. He said that from the outset of the conflict, “hundreds of rockets have been fired from the Qana area.”

Defense Minister Amir Peretz was also profoundly repentant for the fatal strike, saying, “this is a tragic incident that is a result of war. Hizbullah operates in the heart of populated centers with the full knowledge of endangering the lives of innocent civilians.”

Some people have argued over the last two weeks that Hezbollah’s reputation for hiding among civilians is either false or overblown. However, Australia’s Herald-Sun newspaper published photographs that show Hezbollah firing positions within residential areas of Lebanon, confirming the terrorists’ use of civilians as human shields (via AJ Strata):

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon’s battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.

The Herald-Sun site clearly shows anti-aircraft guns in a suburban residential neighborhood. The crew comprises two middle-aged men and at least two who look no older than teenagers. In the background, viewers can clearly see well-maintained apartment buildings.

According to the text, the paper has another picture of a Katyusha rocket lying in a devastated residential area, hit by Israeli bombers. The Australian who took the pictures said that the neighborhood had not been targeted by the Israelis until Hezbollah set up the rocket launchers there — and then the IDF returned fire and destroyed the residential buildings around the launcher.

When people complain about the civilian death toll in Lebanon, we need to remember why it has been as high as it has been. Lebanon and the UN allowed Hezbollah to use civilians as human shields for their rocket launchers and anti-aircraft batteries. The Israelis have little choice but to target Hezbollah’s offensive assets, and that makes the collateral civilian damage the responsibility of the terrorists and their enablers.

ksm

../.”were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend….”

yeah, “smuggled”… stupid moron, so of thousand khmar, yeah “smuggled”
as if e-mails don’t exist…

ksm aka kess emm habeltak

The “hiding among civilians” myth, Salte.com

http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/salon025.html

sorry salon.com

Checking… Checking…. Nope. Nasrallah hasn’t surrendered yet. The war must continue…

Can anyone else see what’s going on in Lebanon today? Israel is achieving the opposite of what they say they want to achieve! Hezbollah is becoming more popular with every passing hour! Why can I see that, but the Americans and the Israeli’s can’t? Israel will not defeat Hezbollah and they will not weaken Hezbollah. They will only weaken Hezbollah temporary in a military way, but the organisation will thrive on the hatred Israel is creating now and other political parties in Lebanon will not be able to anything about that.

Lee, you didn’t blame Hezbollah for anything, but I that was not the point. I just made that remark in a general way, like you (in general)can’t blame Hezbollah for all the civilian casualties. As for the civilian casualties, I totally go along with what one of our anonymous friends wrote at 3:51 PM. Basically it came down to this; if the IDF “smells” Hezbollah anywhere, if only just a few of them, they’re willing to bomb whole buildings full of innocent people. If a car drives down a road, it could be Hezbollah carrying missiles in the trunk, blow that car of the road, BOEM!! That is certainly what it looks like, otherwise you can’t kill hundreds and hundreds of innocent people is just two weeks.

As for the massacre in Qana which occured in 1996. I saw someone wrote about that on this weblog. The person wrote Hezbollah had a mortar positioned about 350 meters (and one 220 meters) from the UN compound. Does that person know how accurate artillery and precision guided bombs are? They can blow that mortar away and not one piece of shrapnel will ever hit the UN compound, but they didn’t. They started shelling the UN compound instead. There was never an investigation into this massacre and international respected organisation like Amnesty International and Human Right Watch concluded the shelling was intentional. For those of you who still believe Israel spares civilians, please do a little research and I don’t try to sound arrogant, but on many occasions Israel have not spared civilians and in fact targetted them intentional. It was for instance standard procedure to retaliate against the civilian population for any Hezbollah action during the time Israel occupied Southern Lebanon.

fBRENT/I am really saddened by all of this,by the fact that many civilians died in this attack but also Mustapha by your response to it.I can understand that today their is a lot of anger over what is going on especially regarding Qana.But let us just step back for a moment ok,is this not in part exactly what Hezbollah wants to see happen in Lebanon not to mention your great friend Syria as well as Iran.Mustapha after some of what you yourself have said do you really have such a hard time believing that Hezbollah was firing rockets from that building or near it,or anywhere in Qana.Rockets that could hit in Israel and also kill civilians there and have in the past.Also continuing on that point yes more Lebanese have died and more lebanese civilians at that and yes numbers do matter,but a life is a life be it Israeli or Lebanese. Unless Lebanese lives have greater value.What about your Arab kin who are citizens of Israel who have died from the impact of Hezbollah rockets randomly,not that it should matter whether they are arab or jew.Also more Israelis would have died if it were not for the fact that they were having to go into shelters,shelters that exist because of this very threat.Think about it there is a significant part of Israel and its people who are under threat from either Hezbollah rockets or missiles or Hamas qassams,to a great extent they are under siege and if those shelters dod not exist the death toll among Israelis would also be high.Let us not forget that for all intents and purposes that this is a war that innocents on both sides are dying and paying the price for,and one question for you if you were in Israel’s position what would you do if an armed force without direct provocation crossed an internatinally agreed upon border and instigated a hostile action with your military killing eight of them and kidnapping two in full sight of UNIFIL.Also that this same force had rockets always targeted on your cities and innocent civilians what would your attitude be toward them ahh lets just love them.Israel had to respond and what does Hezbollah do start targeting Israeli civilians.So let’s not forget what started all of this and who are some of the shadow players in this and is ultimately benefitting from this,no it’s not Lebanon but nor is it Israel.Uhmm Iran and Syria maybe,and I guess from current reaction that Syria has been so much a better friend and neighbor of late than Israel has been.And they are getting from this exactly what they wanted and alot of you in Lebanon as well as in the arab and muslim world seem to be falling for their game including you Mustapha.Which is what saddens me to see someone who was one of the more reasonable voices and supportive of the cedar revolution now beginning to use some of the same rhetoric as Hezbollah,Syria,Iran especially after the gains you made a yr ago.OK I understand having anger toward Israel but Hezbollah was equally if not more culpable and so are Iran and Syria,and if you don’t mind them meddling in your affairs and manipulating people and situations I don’t know what to say

People who argue morality are war-mongers. It does not matter how stirring their words or how graphic their examples. It does not matter which action they cite or which side they blame. They are war mongers who embrace, reinforce, encourage, propogate, create, and perpetuate the very ideas which have made this war possible. You are not on the high moral ground. You have been sucked into the gutter and turned into puppets. You are war mongers who fertilize the soil for future wars. There is no right or wrong. There is only war. Any argument or discussion that does not directly lead to the end of it is contributing to its continuation. I am the moron here. You guys should quit trying to out-stupid me. You are far too good at it and I am having difficulty keeping up.

Moron, your point of view is ridiculous!

“There is no right or wrong. There is only war.”

Are you kidding me? So Hitler wasn’t evil and the people who tried to stop him weren’t on the good side? It was just war! The Nazi’s started WWII, killed 6 million Jews and millions of others, invaded one country after another and you’re telling me it wasn’t a good thing to fight them? That is what you’re saying. There is no right or wrong in war. There is just war. Bullshit! Where did you pick that line up? In fact there’s always right or wrong in war, the f#cked up fact is however the side which is stronger and more powerful writes history. Israel is a strong ally of the US and of the West in general. That’s why were so nice for them and that’s why the US is giving Israel a few more weeks to bomb Lebanon.

Moron,
Fine, you don’t have aproblem with murdering civilians in retaliation for the kidnap and murder of a few soldiers. Most of us do, though, and Israel claims to be morally and democratically superior to most other states. I have a problem with hypocrisy, i have a problem with the murder of innocent civilians, especially by a powerful state which on top of that is supported openly by one of my countries, the UK.
If you don’t have a problem with that, too bad for you.

Israel deliberately committed a war crime today. My goverment provided and continues to provide the weapons that are being used to kill civilians.

Shame on all of us. As I write this my government is at the UN blocking a ceasefire. They want a “lasting peace” to save the children after all the children are dead.

Disgusting.

I am sorry Mustapha. I look at pictures of my 5-year-old daughter today and I am overcome with grief and shame. Please forgive us for our government’s support of this war crime.

hey…iam talking from Gaza-palestine..what happened today was a terrible cruch to everybody..my heart goes with all those people diying, but I think we have to stay strong for them, and with their memory we have to keep our head high, their not gone, the went to a better place, passing a masagge for us to keep struggling to arrive to the moment we raise our victory or die within.
words are only words..i know :(

Mustapha said–
They want to “teach us a lesson” by bombing a clear civilian target with women and handicapped babies in Qana. So far, 30 babies are dead in this all-too-familiar massacre, and some are stuck in the rubbles because Israelis refused to allow humanitarian assistance to reach Southern towns.

I don’t think Israel tried to kill all those civilians – after all, look at the huge PR/propaganda /world pressure hit they’ve taken. I do think it’s going after missiles and launching vehicles from the air even if civilians nearby are likely to die. I can understand why non Hezbollah supporting Lebanese want to rail about that but I can also see that there may not be much alternative if you want to prevail against a guerilla force that’s dedicated to ending your existence.

I also don’t think Israel’s aim or ability to distinguish some targets is as great as most people seem to think or as they sometimes claim. The (older) laser guided type of “precision” bomb and missile can be pretty hard to aim. It generally goes to where the laser points but keeping the laser steady on what you want and being sure what you think you want is what you are actually lasing isn’t so easy. That what USAF generals have been saying and have said before.

(I am neither an Israeli nor a fanatical supporter of them. In fact I can find them pretty infuriating sometimes. I’m a secular New Yorker of moderate Christian ethnic background background, who feels Israel is being way too intransigent on the amount and location of the West Bank land it plans to keep with it’s fence, but understands the difficulties it faces in finding any Palestinian group to negotiate with on some kind of reasonable basis these days.)

Israel feels it faces a threat to it’s very existence from Hezbollah. I think that’s a bit paranoid at the moment, the but I see the logic – and see as well how that could become not paranoid at all in the near future. (And yes it’s true, Israel is at the moment threatening the very existence of any kind of continued normal civil society in Lebanon.)

Jez said…

Fine, you don’t have aproblem with murdering civilians in retaliation for the kidnap and murder of a few soldiers.

The real danger and the real reason for this action wasn’t the kidnapping. The real issue is the rockets. And not just the rocket attack back on July 12 injuring 8 civilians that served as a diversion for the prisoner grab. Rather it’s that added to the rocket attacks that have been going on, off and on, for the last six years since Israel withdrew from the UN designated border of Lebanon. That and the alarming and rapidly increasing size of Hezbollah’s arsenal, combined with the existential nature of their war aims against Israel – that is it’s removal entirely from the Middle East.

If Israel’s northern third and then the whole country faces regular barrages of rocket attacks, that could seriously effect its viability. It simply won’t tolerate that, and eventually as many civilians in the country hosting such attacks are going to die as it takes to make it stop. And you know what, I agree. Starting by trying to just get Hezbollah, but eventually whatever it takes.

Why do you suppose that Syria doesn’t allow rocket attacks or any other sort of skirmishing against Israel by radical groups across it’s border – even though it has far more unresolved territorial issues with Israel than Lebanon does (or claims to have). In fact it has made any such incursions from it’s soil a capital offense – and they’re quick about it. Mainly it simply prevents it. Lebanon has to as well.

The truth is, Israel will do all this again if Hezbollah rains rockets down on it again. Maybe not if it’s an isolated incident and not too many or too much damage, but if there once again are repeated attacks it will. Lebanon is going to find it very hard to attract investment and achieve economic recovery if Hezbollah isn’t disarmed, the Lebanese Army doesn’t credibly patrol it’s borders both with Israel and with Syria with international help, and as well prevent any resupply of weapons across it’s borders to Hezbollah.

I am sorry Mustapha. I live in the US and the way I see the media portary this war absolutely packaged to sustain support for Israel’s war crimes in Lebanon. If US media portrayed this war as it is, US public would have voiced their anger and pressure the White House to stop it.

The tragic targeting of civilians that took place today by the Khisraeli missiles, media here MSNBC, CNN and others show the truck, according to Israelis, with weapons but stops the video when the missile hits the building packed with Children and women. And then their apologist cohorts come on the screens as “experts” or “military analysts” who are vehmently pro-Israel. Oh God, if there is a media version of Nazis, it is the US media.

Paula Zahn, how do you keep justifying the war crimes of Israel in Lebanon? Don’t you have your own children to look at to feel the pain and the loss? You are despicable person with your ultra pro-Israel show. You are full of hatred.

Look at the list of Jews operating the US media. We should really sue CNN and other media outlets over their bias, pro-Israel.

MORTIMER ZUCKERMAN, owner of NY Daily News, US News & World Report and chair of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish American Organizations, one of the largest pro-Israel lobbying groups.

LESLIE MOONVES, president of CBS television, great-nephew of David Ben-Gurion, and co-chair with Norman Ornstein of the Advisory Committee on Public Interest Obligation of Digital TV Producers, appointed by Clinton.

JONATHAN MILLER, chair and CEO of AOL division of AOL-Time-Warner

NEIL SHAPIRO, president of NBC News

JEFF GASPIN, Executive Vice-President, Programming, NBC

DAVID WESTIN, president of ABC News

SUMNER REDSTONE, CEO of Viacom, “world’s biggest media giant” (Economist, 11/23/2) owns Viacom cable, CBS and MTVs all over the world, Blockbuster video rentals and Black Entertainment TV.

MICHAEL EISNER, major owner of Walt Disney, Capitol Cities, ABC.

RUPERT MURDOCH, Owner Fox TV, New York Post, London Times, News of the World (Jewish mother)

MEL KARMAZIN, president of CBS

DON HEWITT, Exec. Director, 60 Minutes, CBS

JEFF FAGER, Exec. Director, 60 Minutes II. CBS

DAVID POLTRACK, Executive Vice-President, Research and Planning, CBS

SANDY KRUSHOW, Chair, Fox Entertainment

LLOYD BRAUN, Chair, ABC Entertainment

BARRY MEYER, chair, Warner Bros.

SHERRY LANSING. President of Paramount Communications and Chairman of Paramount Pictures’ Motion Picture Group.

HARVEY WEINSTEIN, CEO. Miramax Films.

BRAD SIEGEL., President, Turner Entertainment.

PETER CHERNIN, second in-command at Rupert Murdoch’s News. Corp., owner of Fox TV

MARTY PERETZ, owner and publisher of the New Republic, which openly identifies itself as pro-Israel. Al Gore credits Marty with being his “mentor.”

ARTHUR O. SULZBERGER, JR., publisher of the NY Times, the Boston Globe and other publications.

WILLIAM SAFIRE, syndicated columnist for the NYT.

TOM FRIEDMAN, syndicated columnist for the NYT.

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, syndicated columnist for the Washington Post. Honored by Honest Reporting.com, website monitoring “anti-Israel media.”

RICHARD COHEN, syndicated columnist for the Washington Post

JEFF JACOBY, syndicated columnist for the Boston Globe

NORMAN ORNSTEIN, American Enterprise Inst., regular columnist for USA Today, news analyst for CBS, and co-chair with Leslie Moonves of the Advisory Committee on Public Interest Obligation of Digital TV Producers, appointed by Clinton.

ARIE FLEISCHER, Dubya’s press secretary.

STEPHEN EMERSON, every media outlet’s first choice as an expert on domestic terrorism.

DAVID SCHNEIDERMAN, owner of the Village Voice and the New Times network of “alternative weeklies.”

DENNIS LEIBOWITZ, head of Act II Partners, a media hedge fund

KENNETH POLLACK, for CIA analysts, director of Saban Center for Middle East Policy, writes op-eds in NY Times, New Yorker

BARRY DILLER, chair of USA Interactive, former owner of Universal Entertainment

KENNETH ROTH, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch

RICHARD LEIBNER, runs the N.S. Bienstock talent agency, which represents 600 news personalities such as Dan Rather, Dianne Sawyer and Bill O’Reilly.

TERRY SEMEL, CEO, Yahoo, former chair, Warner Bros.

MARK GOLIN, VP and Creative Director, AOL

WARREN LIEBERFORD, Pres., Warner Bros. Home Video Div. of AOL- TimeWarner

JEFFREY ZUCKER, President of NBC Entertainment

JACK MYERS, NBC, chief.NYT 5.14.2

SANDY GRUSHOW, chair of Fox Entertainment

GAIL BERMAN, president of Fox Entertainment

STEPHEN SPIELBERG, co-owner of Dreamworks

JEFFREY KATZENBERG, co-owner of Dreamworks

DAVID GEFFEN, co-owner of Dreamworks

LLYOD BRAUN, chair of ABC Entertainment

JORDAN LEVIN, president of Warner Bros. Entertainment

MAX MUTCHNICK, co-executive producer of NBC’s “Good Morning Miami”

DAVID KOHAN, co-executive producer of NBC’s “Good Morning Miami”

HOWARD STRINGER, chief of Sony Corp. of America

AMY PASCAL, chair of Columbia Pictures

JOEL KLEIN, chair and CEO of Bertelsmann’s American operations

ROBERT SILLERMAN, founder of Clear Channel Communications

BRIAN GRADEN, president of MTV entertainment

IVAN SEIDENBERG, CEO of Verizon Communications

WOLF BLITZER, host of CNN’s Late Edition

LARRY KING, host of Larry King Live

TED KOPPEL, host of ABC’s Nightline

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN Reporter

PAULA ZAHN, CNN Host

MIKE WALLACE, Host of CBS, 60 Minutes

BARBARA WALTERS, Host, ABC’s 20-20

MICHAEL LEDEEN, editor of National Review

BRUCE NUSSBAUM, editorial page editor, Business Week

DONALD GRAHAM, Chair and CEO of Newsweek and Washington Post, son of

CATHERINE GRAHAM MEYER, former owner of the Washington Post

HOWARD FINEMAN, Chief Political Columnist, Newsweek

WILLIAM KRISTOL, Editor, Weekly Standard, Exec. Director
Project for a New American Century (PNAC)

RON ROSENTHAL, Managing Editor, San Francisco Chronicle

PHIL BRONSTEIN, Executive Editor, San Francisco Chronicle,

RON OWENS, Talk Show Host, KGO (ABC-Capitol Cities, San Francisco)

JOHN ROTHMAN, Talk Show Host, KGO (ABC-Capitol Cities, San Francisco)

MICHAEL SAVAGE, Talk Show Host, KFSO (ABC-Capitol Cities, San Francisco) Syndicated in 100 markets

MICHAEL MEDVED, Talk Show Host, on 124 AM stations

DENNIS PRAGER, Talk Show Host, nationally syndicated from LA. Has Israeli flag on his home page.

BEN WATTENBERG, Moderator, PBS Think Tank.

ANDREW LACK, president of NBC

DANIEL MENAKER, Executive Director, Harper Collins

DAVID REZNIK, Editor, The New Yorker

NICHOLAS LEHMANN, writer, the New York

HENRICK HERTZBERG, Talk of the Town editor, The New Yorker

SAMUEL NEWHOUSE JR, and DONALD NEWHOUSE own Newhouse Publications, includes 26 newspapers in 22 cities; the Conde Nast magazine group, includes The New Yorker; Parade, the Sunday newspaper supplement; American City Business Journals, business newspapers published in more than 30 major cities in America; and interests in cable television programming and cable systems serving 1 million homes.

DONALD NEWHOUSE, chairman of the board of directors, Associated Press.

PETER R KANN, CEO, Wall Street Journal, Barron’s

RALPH J. & BRIAN ROBERTS, Owners, Comcast-ATT Cable TV.

LAWRENCE KIRSHBAUM, CEO, AOL-Time Warner Book Group

For the same reasons that you just pointed out I think that the lebanese should do all they can to rain death and destruction on israel’s economy till it realizes that its force and disuasion are over.

Another email from my journalist friend. The IDF has been analyzing the films. The result is puzzling. They identified the building, where the women and children have slept. This one has been hit between midnight and 1:00 am. During night, another house, about 500 meters away has ben hit. In the morning, around 7:30 am they hit another house about 460 meters away from the crucial building. IAF are puzzled and don’t know what happened between 1:00 am and 7:30 am.

The films by the targeting-instruments show clearly, that none of the rockets or bombs failed the house that has been bombed in the morning (the one 460 meters away).

sincerely.

am_pm said…
… not everybody can leave just because the IDF said so …

There’s a lot of BS about this, in this case and other cases, which the media doesn’t look behind probably because of the Politically Correct “that’s blaming the victim” mindset.

Very, very poor people e.g. in Africa, SE Asia and so on manage to leave war zones (when they aren’t prevented from doing so by forces on the ground) all the time, when they think the danger of being killed if they don’t is very high. It can be a very tough decision since there can be the risk of losing all the little they do own, and in any event living in uprooted refugee squalor for who knows how long.

I think the people of Qana who stayed probably decided to take their chances in light of the relative cost to them of leaving given their resources, and the real risk they THOUGHT they were taking. And a sense of defiance towards Israelis who wanted them to leave to make the Israeli task easier.

As well it’s by no means clear that no Shi’a civilians or quasi-civilians are unwilling to do the ‘patriotic’ thing and serve as human shields for Hezbollah. Yeah babies don’t decide that but their parents might.

RUPERT MURDOCH, Owner Fox TV, New York Post, London Times, News of the World (Jewish mother)

How far do you want to trace them back? As a German I thought that this kind of list will never appear again in a civilized world. What an error :-(((

Anonymous, before you go on denouncing other people, why don’t you show us your family tree?

justme,

That list shows the face of ugly, nazi American media dominated by jews.

It was wrong for Europe to implant and export its problems in the heart of Arab world who are kept hostage and sufferring because of this menace called Khisrael.

Random Opinion

Justme, why involve WWII in this discussion? It wasn’t really necessary to make that comparison.

Isn’t it obvious the US is supporting Israel almost no matter what happens! I again point at the article in this months Foreign Policy, an American magazine about international relations and politics. Two Harvard professors are (again) defending their point of view the Jewish lobby in the US is so strong it influences US foreign policy concerning the Middle East in a big way. They claim that is not in the interest of the United States and sometimes it is even in the interest of Israel itself. If you have American Jews on influential positions in the government, media etc. it is only logical they’re trying to use their influence for the benefit of Israel and they are succeeding in doing so.

i feel your pain mustapha…fuck the idf…and israel…ZOG and its proxies (house of saud, king of jordan, and mubarak). Every one of these regimes should be overthrown right now.

So the misinformation begins now….they are “puzzled” ? It just gets Dumb and Dumber

With US media controled by Jews, it suffers from moral inadequacy. Consolidation of media is not a threat, the threat to media freedom which is controlled by Jews is the threat.

Shame on these opportunistic, nationalist Jews. Their action puts them side by side with nazi brothers. After all they deserve each other.

Random Opinion

let me clarify -

Those who argue that one or the other side is evil and must be dealt with accordingly are war mongerers. The act of arguing along such lines encourages further war. It does not matter what you think you are agruing. The act of arguing morality is itself an endorsement of the war process.

During the course of war there is no value in arguing good or bad. There is only war and the arguments about whether or not it should continue and - if not, then how to best end it. The argument that you desire peace but the other side is evil is self-contradictory. You can not honestly say that you desire peace if you are also willing to propose that one or the other is evil.

There are those who post here claiming that they want peace. They are liars. They want peace but only with victory. Has there ever been a war in the history of mankind where a combatant would have been unwilling to accept a victorious peace?

Dougjnn,
Can you let me know where you read about the rockets fired on july 12 by Hezbollah injuring eight. I can’t find anything about that. As far as I know Hezbollah kidnapped and killed eight soldiers and captured two.

Moron99 said
“There are those who post here claiming that they want peace. They are liars. They want peace but only with victory.”

That is merely an opinion based on no facts. Have you abandoned your rationality?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=Obsession%3A+What+The+War+on+Terror+Is+Really+About&hl=en

PLEASE SEE THIS — p.s. Jews do not control all media — that’s like saying all Arabs are all terrorists!

“if the IDF “smells” Hezbollah anywhere, if only just a few of them, they’re willing to bomb whole buildings full of innocent people. if only just a few of them, they’re willing to bomb whole buildings full of innocent people. If a car drives down a road, it could be Hezbollah carrying missiles in the trunk, blow that car of the road, BOEM!! That is certainly what it looks like, otherwise you can’t kill hundreds and hundreds of innocent people is just two weeks. “

On the contrary.  There are said to be nearly a million Lebanese “refugees” from the fighting, at least half of them fled north from the fighting.
Israel owns the sky over Lebanon.
Any of those “refugees” could have been Hezbollah.
If Israel were as indiscriminate as you claim, then there should be thousands, indeed maybe tens of thousands of dead “collateral damage” by now.

That said, Israel is not nearly so discriminating as I would like them to be.
I will say again, “I’m not at all happy with an Israeli offensive that seems to be killing more civilians than Hezbollah.“

And, I believe it is time, indeed well past time, for the Israeli to admit that “Plan A” did not work.
Hezbollah was better dug in than they thought, Hezbollah is fighting more fiercely than they expected.
Israel can run Hezbollah out of southern Lebanon if they choose to put their mind to that, but the cost, the political cost, is becoming too high.  I hope Israel is now working on “Plan B”, ‘cause “Plan A” did not work as they had hoped and it’s time to make a new plan.

Look, we have our host here cheering for Hezbollah now, telling us that all Lebanese should join hands with them.
Hezbollah is probably the single most popular political party amongst all the Arabs now, who cheer for them while Lebanon bleeds out, and the Israeli take the blame.
And Hezbollah started it!

Surely this is not what Israel wanted.

Time for a new plan.