Was reading on the net, blogs, online papers, and in the mainstream media…all keep saying that Hezbollah will be too difficult to defeat as they are a gurilla force, and you can’t eliminate a gurilla force that is so deeply entrenched in the local society…
Some even go as far as saying that the Hezbollah are winning, with the Israelis sustaining more and more casualties.

Well, I hope that this war goes on and Hezbollah keep winning to the last fighter is killed…

I heard on the grapevine that Nahasallah has fled to Syria … any truth to it???

I, unfortunately, feel that Hizbo are getting stronger. And it was obvious from the beginning that Sinyora’s gov was distancing itself from Hizbo. Also, even the US media has been clearly distinuishing between Hizbo and the gov.

However, I also do not think this disemgamegement is as complete as one might hope. Israel can be, and rightfully so, a mighty uniting force. Nasrallah, in his last speech sincerely said that he trusts the government to negotiate for him, and I think that Sinyora is putting forth Nasralla’s short term conditions during negotiations, while at the same time acknowledging that a long term solution is required to end the ongoing conflicts.

Sinoyra has a rough job, I’ll tell you that.

CK

Mustapha,Your post is a bit premature.

Sinyoura did a fine job in Rome and there is no apparent disconnect. He laid out what will be lebanese demands for a just solution with some help from Berri. Both have been authorized to negoiate on HA’s behalf by Nassrallah.

Sinyoura is also under increasing pressure from his constituents because his callous friends and allies oppose a ceasefire. It also doesn’t help that his boss is to much of a coward to return to Beirut. He is in an unenviable position.

There is no Sunni consensus in Lebanon under Sinyoura as long as the war rages and expands.

Everyone in Lebanon will suffer from these Israeli war crimes.

The living more than the dead.

Issam

an interesting Israeli journalist interview with Seniora, in Rome:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3282086,00.html

i sincerely wonder what does that say to you regarding the Hizbulla and the Lebanese govt’s political stands.

Moustapha_
you had to see last night’s episode of Kalam al Nass, with Marcel Ghanem.
It was disgusting, he assembled about 16 Lebanese youth from different religions and affiliations, and they just… went at each other.
HA feels backstabbed… yes.
there was no unity, no intellectual nor practical discourses or solutions.
just shouts, hatred and most importantly THREATS.

“we will win, and it will not be a victory for the Lebanese. It will be a victory for just one part, and their allies of honorable ppl… AND WE WILL NOT COME BACK TO THE COUNTRY WITH MODESTY…”

Yeah, well Hezbollah will have it’s ranks added to by teenage and elderly Iranians (about 200)very soon marching bravely for the cause carrying the Hezbollah yellow flag. They are on fire and ready to die if need be. How insane will this get. Every demento including AQ is going to get into the act to bring about the war of all wars. This crusade in reverse is suicidal. Lebanon has lost their country to islamic terrorists with an army. And they let it happen.

So what you are saying is that Sunnis are abondoning their countrymen and nation in times of life and death and Israel morale to plunder while weakening Palestinian morale.

If true, history will judge them harshly who not only stands-by yet tries to undermine those that defend their collective dignity. they don’t understand that Israel is a hegemon that has a long term goal to dominate their political, social and economic life. Slowly, slowly, Israel will creep up and declare itself the King of Arabs. Shame on these opportunits, if it is true.

I fear that the real test for the Lebanese will come after the hostilities cease. It will become apparent that the peace prior to the present war was a false one. It was a Pax Syriana-Hizbollah. It will become apparent that the real resistance will have to be against Hizbollah because unless you resist, you will ultimately become their slaves. Democracy is not on their agenda, neither is any relinquishing of their own feudal state on the Iranian franchise model.

I don’t mean this as a criticism but I notice that the Beirut Spring Art contains nothing about Nasrallah. We all know should know what that is all about. I did happen to see that recent satirical piece on Nasrallah by the journalist who subsequently lost his job and had to flee to France for his life. Where I come from, that kind of thing is light satiracal humor. Doesn’t this give some indicationl you what is going happen?

Perhaps my view from far-off Canada is presumtuous to those of you in the middle of this war, but I honestly know instinctively that this is only the beginning of your struggle. Choose your allies wisely and for what its worth you have my hopes and prayers that you truly achieve freedom for all.

anonymous 4:36,

the greatest enemy of the arab people has always been the arab tolerance for bad leadership. You do not need protection from Israel nearly as much as you need protection from Saddam, Assad, Nasrallah, the Muslim Brotherhood, Arafat, the Iranian Mullacracy, Sadr, Al Queda, Khadafi, … etc, etc, etc. They have had you chasing your tail in a cycle of self-destruction ever since the mongols invaded. Ah yes, Saladin. One great man many many centuries ago. He was but one amoung thousands and you have tolerated the scum ever since.

These leaders of yours do not mind if you spend your lives going in circles and killing each other. It is exactly what they want. They live safely in their palaces and rob you blind. If you are too busy killing each other and hating the jews then you will never get around to killing or hating them. They laugh all the way to the bank. How much money did Arafat have? Where did he find such lerge amounts of money amoungts all that Palestinian poverty?

Lebanon has a chance to break this cycle and get a government that serves the people instead of the leaders. Nasrallah has you hypnotized with your hatred of the jews. Look beyond your hatred and ask yourself if Nasrallah offers your a better future or more chasing of your tail. If you do not ask this, then you are nothing more than another one of his trained dogs.

Z said:
>you had to see last night’s episode of Kalam al Nass, with Marcel Ghanem

a question: is there a way to view that online?

thanks

My guess (it could be your certainty as far as I know!) is that the US gave Israel the go ahead to attack infrastracture, factories, even the Lebanese army, in order to create divisions in Lebanon. Hoping that this would turn would Sunni-Maronite-Druze-Greek Orthodox-Armenian against the Shia. So, in fact Israel, as in the good old days would divide up Lebanese society, to rule. Israel would suffer little or no casualties because the “dirty work” would have been done by the Shia’s neighbours. What do you, Mustapha, think? See this post from the bbc’s web site.

Added: Thursday, 27 July, 2006, 15:11 GMT 16:11 UK

why doesn’t the government of Lebanon work with Israel to get rid of Hezbollah. I find it hard to sympathize for Lebanese government when for all this time they have allowed this terrorist group to live freely in their country with the risk that they may pull something like the unprovoked kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers. Hezbollah must of known that Israel would respond strongly as they would just have to look at what happen to palestine when they kidnapped a soldier.

patrick, canada

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Anonymous said…

So what you are saying is that Sunnis are abondoning their countrymen and nation in times of life and death and Israel morale to plunder while weakening Palestinian morale.

If true, history will judge them harshly who not only stands-by yet tries to undermine those that defend their collective dignity. they don’t understand that Israel is a hegemon that has a long term goal to dominate their political, social and economic life. Slowly, slowly, Israel will creep up and declare itself the King of Arabs. Shame on these opportunits, if it is true.

July 27, 2006 4:36 PM

———————

You are very wrong actually. Israel does nt want to be the king of arabs. All they want is a bit of water from the litani river. Check mustafa’s previous post on this issue.

Israel, the “King of the Arabs”?????

Where’s the abdication form?!!?!?!!!

harry -

You’re one short step away from the crazy conspiracy club. Even if the US wanted to get that involved with Israeli military strategy the Israelis would never allow it. We (the US) have too many leaks and our press loves to divuldge our national secrets. It is preposterous to think that the Israeli’s would trust us, much less consult us.

Mustapha,

A self-serving movement like Hizballah is not a true nationalistic resistance movement. Hence, it is only natural that the gap will widen between the Sanyora government (which I have to say is conducting its affairs properly) and a radical organization hell bent on following orders issued in Damascus and Tehran, rather than Beirut.

-FGA

I managed to get out of Lebanon a couple of days ago and I assure you that 90 % of non Shiites blame the Hezb for this.
My solution is for the South to sperate or the rest of the country to do it. Let those who wish to fight the evil zionists move there and fight. Let those of us who have “no dignity” enjoy their undignified lives. Khlasna baa!

Anonymous of 8:46pm.

Thanks for this very comforting statement. I agree completely with you. Unfortunately I dont see this happening in real life. On a larger scale, why dont Iran and Syria fight Israel directly rather than through Lebanon? How pathetic are those two backwards regimes!

-FGA

According to US and Israeli governments if you are weak you are terrorists, therefore, denied any rights whatsoever. On the other hand, if the powerful can torn down people’s roofs with F16s, inflicts much much greater damage in proportion to the weaker inflicting on the powerful, they are righteous, the “chosen” ones.

Since Israel’s plantation in Palestine, it has been the only single factor that has kept the whole region of the Midlle East in despair. Israel it the reason for undemocratic countries flourishing in ME. If you take Israel factor of equation in ME politics, then the region has the potential to progress on all fronst, economic, politics and social.

Now that Israel is overtly and covertly instilling division in Lebanon to pit Sunnis and Christians against Shiites, then Israel export its problems into Lebanon. If no one has the stmoach for anther civil war and the country is split between Shiites and Sunni/Christians, then it wouldn’t take long before Sunnis and Christians would be at each other’s throat. IF you take the Shiite factor out of the equation in Lebanese politics, then you have less manuverability which would lead to unhealthy social/political friction.

anonymous 11:12

Israel is 60 years old. What is the excuse for the other 940 years?

No one, including Israel, is suggesting that Shiite’s or any other group should be removed from Lebanese politics. They are saying that there should only be one army and it should be controlled by to the Lebanese government. You can only have civil war if there is more than one militia.

Moron99 I wish your words get through to the thick heads of my countrymen. I agree with everything you say. Sadley Lebanese people have shown time and time again that their greatest skill is squandering opportunities to unite and build a free and democratic country.

They all make me sick.

Moron99,

True that ME had its share of violence before the creation of Israel, but so did other continents/regions. Ever since the planation of Israel on Palestinian soil, the enrgy and focus of ME Arab societies has been pre-occupied with Israeli violence. It has distracted the public and created a fertile ground for Arab tyrant kings all over to enjoy themselves. Development of the world has happened in the past 100 years and acclerated in the past 50 years. In the later window Arabs has lagged precisly becaus eof Israel.

Remember that one of the reasons Israel was planted on Palestine soil was due to WWII in Europe, in a way Europe exported its problems or compensated its crimes against Jews at the expense of Arabs.

Now that Israel has been planted in ME, Europe, US and Israel itslef must bear in mind to show respect for its neighbors rather than try to bully and dominate the region with its hegemonic projections.

Israelis claim that “we want just peace” yet how true is it when it keeps occupying Arab lands in Lebanon, Syria and mistreats Palestinians the way Pols treated Jews in “old Europe.”

For US audience, Israelis repeatedly resort to the hypothetical explanation of US would react similarly if an alien army kidnapped its soldiers from it soil. True, US would react against the intruders harshly, but US would respond even harsher if an alien state occupied part of its soil.

So Israel’s claim of we just want peace is false and packaged for western Audience, mainly the US since its support to Israel is vital.

If Israel truely is FOR peace then it should start a comprehensive peace plan that simultaneously settles dispute with Syria, Palestine and Lebanon. Israel has more than enough capability to defend itself without keeping Golan Heights as a buffer zone. If Syria ever, which is 99.99 percent unlikely, attacks Israel, then Israel can turn to rubble the government and infrastructure of Syria in no time. With existence of these obvious facts, one wonders why Israel doesn’t go ahead with a comprehensive peace plan if it truely want peace. Or Israel might have bigger plans, to make itslef undelcared and undisputed king of ME.

Without a comprehensive peace plan, don’t ever expect Syria to back down from supporting Hezbollah. If Israel offers a comprehensive peace plan, then even Iran will be nuetralized by losing its “Israel” card. Then Iran’s development of “potential” weapon-grade nuclear technology will be less or nor headache for Israel as it would be for its neighbors, mainly Saudi Arabia. Even if Iran developes nuclear weapons, it would be more like a “balancing” than “tiping” of power. Since Pakistan (Sunni dominated and close ally of Saudi Arabia and Arab solidarity if thers is hostlity between Shiite Persia and one or two Arab Countries ) will serve as an insurance against any rise of Persian power. If Israel settles with its Arab neighbors, the furture threat to current Arab Kings and President-kings will be pressue from Arab masses to enfranchise them from margins of power, politics and economy, since Arabs will preoccupy their focus and energy inward rather than outward (Israel). Social change, as we know it, comes from within and with economic prosperity and continued stability in persistent but gradual steps. Of course, it will not be a smooth ride, but this is the only hopeful way to look ahead. If it can’t work, relatively speaking, this way…then either Arabs has to leave the region or Israel move of ME voluntarily. Becuase it is too much for the people in this region to be kept hostage to this Arab/Israeli confilict any longer.

Random Opinion (n from now on I will sign as Random Opinion since there are too many anonymies…

Random opinion,

well, first off, western civilization did not develop in the last 100 years.
A brief history:
Rome fell and Europe went fuedal with warlords and tribal mentality. The warlords killed off each other until there was just one within a region and they called him king. The only thing more powerful than tribal allegiances was religion so the priests got involved in politics. The kings and priests ruled with an iron fist and brutally killed off any who opposed their duopoly of power. This period is called the “dark ages” lasted almost 1000 years. Then they got greedy and launched a crusade to conquer new lands. During the course of the crusades new ideas were introduced that the clerics could not brush aside with superstition. A small group of clerics - most notably Martin Luther - rose up and publicly stated that the church was corrupt and no longer served God. They were very specific with their grievances and used the Bible itself to make their case. At the same time the printing press was invented and common people were able to read the bible for themselves. An english king started his own variation of christianity. Once the wall of taboo against questioning clerics was broken then the flood of advancement began. Science, music, medicine, mathematics, and art which had been supressed for so long flourished in an explosion of thought called the renaisance. This was the start of modern western civilization. It occurred roughly 600 years ago. Everything we have and are is built upon foundations laid during the renaissance. Modern democracy itself owes its birth to the rennaisance. In particular, the teachings of Mohammed influenced french philosophers such as Locke who put forth that “government should exist only by willing consent”. This is directly drawn from the Islamic idea that nothing is legitimate unless it is given by willing consent. The French philophers reasoned that freedom to speak and freedom to choose were things and a government that took them away against willing consent was therefore illegitimate. In science Issac Newton, Maxwell, Davinci, and others created the methodolgy of testing a hypotheseis and defining a theory. The seed was planted 600 years ago. When a mighty tree starts out as a sapling it grows only one or two branches per year. The larger the tree becomes the more new branches it can sprout every season. In reality the growth is a steady and constant expansion. And so it was with western civillization. Each new idea giving rise to three new ones. It started 600 years ago. It is only in the last 100 years that the body of “recently acquired knowledge” exceeded that of the Egyptians or Romans. And thusly you may have reached the conclusion that our tree is only 100 years old. It is not. What is less than 100 years old is a new philosophy “tribe of man”. The premise being that our alliance should be to the species. It gave rise to League of nations, United Nations, and globalization. It remains to be seen whether we shall form this larger group or engage in severe population reductions. I personally do not see any other alternatives.

Regarding Israel. Those nations who have made peace with Israel, such as Egypt and Jordan. Did they not have their lands returned to them without any further threat of seizure? As such, your idea that the way to get land returned is through violence is pure BS. It is the rhetoric intended to keep the common people running in circles will the kings live safely in palaces exploiting national wealth as if it were personal property. Been there, done that. See above prior to rennaisance.

Regarding Iran. Don’t be fooled for an instant. Iran doesn’t want nukes in order to confront the west. That is like developing a motorcycle in order to confront a tractor trailer. Iran wants nukes so that they can rebuild the persian empire. Do you seriously think they are deeply concerned and empasssioned about the arab problems? Iran only hates Israel because they want to establish a state that stretches from Pakistan to the mediterannean. They see religion as the vehicle and know that the jews won’t play by their rules or submit to their mullahs. Pakistan won’t do squat. Maybe the guys in caves care and they will send a few suicide bombers but the guys who actually run the country and control the real weapons are more concerned with India. Not to mention that Pakistan suffers terrible natural disasters and has a hard enough time keeping their own economy afloat. They couldn’t afford to take on Iran even if they wanted to.

I must confess complete confusion over PM Siniora. From here, it appears he is reduced to being a Hezbo puppet.

With statements suggesting the Lebanese army would work in combination with Hezbo against Israel.

No expressed word from the PM about the release of the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers nor expression of regret over the killing of the 8 Israeli soldiers by Hezbo from him.

There is virtually no inclination on his part of his interest in governing Lebanon sans the Iran-Syria-Hezbo contingent.

Moron99,

I more or less agree with your summary about developments of thought regarding governance and society in Europe, however, you forgot to include the golden age of Islam under the Abassyeds. It is a bit besides the point to emphasis so much back that way past history. After all I don’t think you have read my post throughly or misunderstood the points I was trying to get across.

You wrote “Regarding Israel. Those nations who have made peace with Israel, such as Egypt and Jordan. Did they not have their lands returned to them without any further threat of seizure? As such, your idea that the way to get land returned is through violence is pure BS.”

Exactly, Egypt’s peace with Israel has secured Israel from being attacked, so there is real peace dividend for Israel. Contrary to what you claim or how you understood my comments, I emphaissed the importance of Israel makig a comprehensive and simultaneous peace with its neighbors, mainly Syria, Lebanin and Palestine, so no party feels neglected or ignored. When Israel makes progress for peace with the Palestinians it neglects Syria’s legitimate call for peace to return Golan Heights back to Syria. As a result Syria through Hamas or Hezbollah makes every effor to undermine that process to get finalized. It is a legitimate concern for Syria, becaus once Israel settles with the Palestinians, Syrria’s position will be weakened and will be forced to settle on less favorable. Indeed, if this is not Israel’s design to not return Golan Heights back to Syria then Israel is dragging its foot and ingores Syria’s call for peace. why not make peace once and for all?

As for Iran, again you have missed my point unless I have not expressed it clearly. I think that Iran has ambitions not to establish Persian Empire as you say, rather empowering the often neglected minority Shiites in the region. And my point for Israel to make comprehensive peace with its three neighbors was exactly to hihglight the fact that such borader would peace rob Iran from its “Israel” card. Ironically, Syria is the weakest link for Iran to ever establish its “persian empire” since Syria is majority Sunni and its minority, liberal shiite-run govenrment is stauchly secular. So, Iran will never get farther than to elevate social status of its co-religionists in respective countries of the region. Mind, do realize that Saudis had this great ambition of establishing “Kaliphate” in the region through its brand of Wahabisim and failed miserablly which even backfired. The lesson is that such great plans no longer work, especially thorugh expansion since such expansion requires enormous resoruces which they don’t have to sustain it nor it is politically viable as variables increase. What made Soviets fall was its old mentality of expansion equals power. Not to forget the other point, which is the prospects of uprsiing from within Iran, especially when Israel makes peace with its neighbors. You also don’t seem to understand the policies or ambitions of Pakistan. While India is arch enemy of Pakistan and because of it, Pakistan has ambitions of its own to expand into Afghanistan and other central Asian nations and eventually Iran and even Turkey to match India’s depth and weight. Also don’t forget that Pakistan can reliablly depend on China while Iran doesn’t have the prospect of such backing from any great powers. Once Israel makes comprehensive peace with its neighbors, then these countries would be under serious threat from own people who focus and think inward rather outward (Israel).

If “Israel wants jsut peace” its must return Golan Heights, Shabaa Farms and help Palestinians establish their estate.

You have to re-read my earlier post becuase I have a feeling that you have understood what I am trying to say.

Random Opinion

moron99

“You’re one short step away from the crazy conspiracy club. “

A dumb response. Ask yourself why the US government stands 100% behind Israel as it rampages through Lebanon, using US taxpayers’ money to turn Lebanon into rubble under the pretext of fighting Hezbollah

Another Anonymous said….

If true, history will judge them harshly who not only stands-by yet tries to undermine those that defend their collective dignity. they don’t understand that Israel is a hegemon that has a long term goal to dominate their political, social and economic life. Slowly, slowly, Israel will creep up and declare itself the King of Arabs. Shame on these opportunits, if it is true.

———-

What is your evidence of these grand designs of Israel? What has Israel done, ever, to give you this idea? Please be specific…I really want to know what you think and know… with all due respect.
I think it would be unfair to include its actual “plantation” in the first place… please begin from the day AFTER Israel was declared a nation again.
Why have the Jews been the most persecuted and hated people on the planet?
Why and how did Israel end up with the Golan Heights and Shebaa Farms? What prompted Israel’s need to “invade” Lebanon the last time? What territory was in dispute when Israel’s enemies attacked in 1948 and 1967?
How can Israel come up with a “comprehensive peace plan” with neighbors who dispute Israel’s very right to exist and occupy any ME land at all?
Who told the Arab people who lived in the new Israel to leave their homes and run away? Why were they told to leave? Why haven’t neighboring countries taken in and given full rights to these poor downtrodden Palestinians who lost out when these neighbors lost their ill-conceived war to destroy the fledgling Israel? How are Arab citizens of Israel treated today? How do Arabs who disagree in philosophy treat each other today? How large (or small) are these disputed territories in comparison to the massive amount of territory (and oil wealth) of Israel’s surrounding neighbors and to the greater Muslim world?
Are Arab peoples and societies so dependent upon these tiny pieces of property that they just cannot “look inward” and get themselves together until these pieces are back in their possession?
I can give you lots of examples of nations that have moved forward and become free, peaceful societies in spite of having lost territory in various wars and political shifts (and yes, there are some who’ve NOT been able to move forward).
Why do I feel the need to be another “Anonymous” on a blog like this?
Answer is in what ankhfkhonsu said…
“I don’t mean this as a criticism but I notice that the Beirut Spring Art contains nothing about Nasrallah. We all know should know what that is all about. I did happen to see that recent satirical piece on Nasrallah by the journalist who subsequently lost his job and had to flee to France for his life. Where I come from, that kind of thing is light satiracal humor. Doesn’t this give some indicationl you what is going happen?”
This journalist is not the only one who’s ever had to flee for his life for criticizing either Q’uran, or Muhammad, or some Mullah. That’s why I choose to be another “Anonymous.”
Life’s not like that in Israel or the U.S.
Why don’t so many Arab Israelis want to give up their Israeli citizenship and live in a “Palestinian state”?
What are the stated, long term goals of Hamas, Hizbollah, the PLO, al-Aqsa, al-Qaida, etc? What will make them stop jihad against Israel and the U.S. and “the West”?
I for one would not be happy as a Muslim…I’m a full on Yeshua-freak Christian Zionist and my God has told me how the story will play out… and it’s all playing out just like He said it would.
I’m convinced and grateful to be one of his “chosen.”
“Pray for the peace of Jerusalem; those that love her will prosper.” (Psalm 122)
Read the Bible… you’ll be amazed, believe me.
Praying for peace and safety for all those who WANT peace and safety.

this is the same Anonymous that is praying for your peace and safety in the last one.

Just wanted to add…
moron99, your comments about tail chasing are brilliant, and I agree with your other comments as well.
Rock on!

“I’m a full on Yeshua-freak Christian Zionist and my God has told me how the story will play out… and it’s all playing out just like He said it would.”

I think we guessed that…

True regarding old school expansionism. Much better to do it the US or Syria’s way for example: by proxy.

One more comment. If you want to stop terror, stop participating in it as someone once said. I don’t doubt my lebanese friends when they accuse Hezbollah of putting them in danger. I don’t doubt, that Hezbollah needlessly provoked Israel. However, I have to agree with those who say the ball for peace in the Middle East is in Israel’s camp.
Sure, there is no democracy in the ME (including the jewish state), but Israel is the only state which by its very essence excludes a big chunk of its population, colonised them, and now terrorises them while pretending to let them have a state: the palestinian state, when it finally comes into existence will no doubt be smaller than it should be, due to the remaining israeli colonies, the wall, and the separation of Gaza and the West Bank.
I don’t think palestinians or lebanese have anything to thank other arab states for, but whether or not other arabs are sincere in their condemnation of israeli crimes, these acts of terror against arabs are most definitely the main obstacle to peace for Israel, Palestine, Lebanon and the rest of the ME.
Furthermore, we all know the hysteric quality of the propaganda which says Israel is in danger of being pushed into the sea. Israel’s might and that of it’s ally the US is well documented. Remember the 6 day war, and the Yom Kippur war?
What is surprising today, is that with all it’s might and so-called precision, it is unable to speedily win the war against Hezbollah. How come it took the murder of hundreds of lebanese civilians, before Tsahal could take over Hezbollah positions?
Let us not forget, that back in 1982 the plan was simply to push the PLO back in order to guarantee israeli safety. Israel stayed on for 18 years.
Conspiracy theory? If it suits you to think so.

Jez said…

Furthermore, we all know the hysteric quality of the propaganda which says Israel is in danger of being pushed into the sea. Israel’s might and that of it’s ally the US is well documented. Remember the 6 day war, and the Yom Kippur war?

—————

Israel spent most of its history outgunned and outnumbered by the arab armies. USA did nt support israel until into 70s. Its true that Israel achieved a significant economical and technological superiority over its neighbors but it is a recent development. The 6 day war is an example of non of these things.

It is rather as moshe dian ( if i remember it right ) put it. he said - ‘Its not that we have a very good army , its just that we have a very stupid enemy’. Many israelis would agree that israel military superiority has more to do with the fact that most of its history it was fighting a very backward and unintelligent enemy who could nt take advantage of its numerical superiority and the russian military technology. How this tiny country can be percieved as a sort of military superpower is beyond my comprehension.

Jez says
“Sure, there is no democracy in the ME (including the jewish state), but Israel is the only state which by its very essence excludes a big chunk of its population, colonised them, and now terrorises them while pretending to let them have a state: the palestinian state, when it finally comes into existence will no doubt be smaller than it should be, due to the remaining israeli colonies, the wall, and the separation of Gaza and the West Bank.”

I will never claim to understand the Arab mindset or to share their definition of dignity and honor. BUT ….
If I were a Palestinian then I would be fighting to become part of Israel. I would look at all the Arab states and say to myself “what the hell are we fighting for? So that we may become like them? No f**king way.”

You see, I do not have Arab dignity. My dignity comes from freedom. A slave has no dignity. The more freedom you have then the further from slavery you become and therefore the more dignity you gain. Hasn’t it ever struck you as odd that the Arabs have been fighting for their dignity for hundreds of years - and yet, they are no closer? That’s because they are chasing a mirage. True dignity comes from freedom. When your government and clerics take away your freedoms then you have lost dignity. You can not regain it by fighting against those who did not steal it.

Random opinion,

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. In my opinion, land follows peace. In your opinion peace follows land.

Gaza was an experiment in the “land leads to peace” hypothesis. It appears to be a failure. I do not know enough about these sponsored and linked groups that operate below government such as hamas, hezzbollah, al queda. So perhaps Gaza was the wrong piece of land. But on the surface, it still offers compelling evidence that peace does not follow land.

I go back to my jungle analogy.
“in the beginning man was alone in the jungle. He got together with other men and they fought and clawed and scratched and barricaded to keep out the jackals, the lions, the bears, the crocodiles, the tigers, and the snakes. When finished he found peace within his new village.

Our villages became towns, our towns cities, our cities states, and our states into nations. But we will still never find peace if we allow jackals and tigers to roam freely amoung us. The Tigers tell us that they are protecting us. But it is tigerskins that the hunters want and it is us that the tigers feed upon.”

Moron99 said…

Random opinion,

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. In my opinion, land follows peace. In your opinion peace follows land.

———————

I think more important is how the society sees its priorities. If it thinks that normal life , education of children and so on are more important than land , pride , territory … then the actual order what comes first is less important.

Gaza was a failure because of the palestinian commitment to armed struggle. It was percieved as a prove of israeli weakness in the face of resistance. Were the pullout negotiated it would nt change a thing and the plaestinians would elect hamas anyway and hamas would in its turn refuse to accept previous agreements. The major mistake of the palestinains and hezbollah is their inability to understand that the israelis would grow progressively tougher and willing to sustain casualties , the more they would see themselves as left with no other option.

Anonymous Yeshua-freak Christian Zionist here again (me)–

Once again you nail it moron99, and “nobody” also…. I seriously think I’ll print out your comments and keep them in my pocket for when I need verbal ammo.

jez, you did not attempt to answer a single question I posed, and you pulled out my unapologetic self-description as if it’s some kind of blotch on my character (at least that’s how I read your isolation of it). Perhaps I should have just labeled myself “interested scholar of history intent upon truly understanding the nature of current conflict” and “objective observer of the unique status of the nation of Israel” — so what’s your party line? Are you apologetic about it? I try really hard to stay objective, but it’s difficult when I see things like 9/11, Lockerby, Munich (does anyone remember Munich??!!), Denmark, Chechnya, Beslan, the Passover Seder bombing, etc, etc, etc.
You said——
“However, I have to agree with those who say the ball for peace in the Middle East is in Israel’s camp.
Sure, there is no democracy in the ME (including the jewish state), but Israel is the only state which by its very essence excludes a big chunk of its population, colonised them, and now terrorises them while pretending to let them have a state: the palestinian state, when it finally comes into existence will no doubt be smaller than it should be, due to the remaining israeli colonies, the wall, and the separation of Gaza and the West Bank.
I don’t think palestinians or lebanese have anything to thank other arab states for, but whether or not other arabs are sincere in their condemnation of israeli crimes, these acts of terror against arabs are most definitely the main obstacle to peace for Israel, Palestine, Lebanon and the rest of the ME.”

————

Yes, there have been some incidents of mistreatment of “Palestinians” by Israel, and Israel’s hands are not completely clean. There is still judgment pending for Israel on these matters. However, I call upon you now to stand behind your version with facts, places, dates, specifics. This was the intention of my barrage of questions– I want to see ANSWERS to those questions from people who know and from people who are subject to the mythology that fuels the anti-Israel mindset.
What size “should” this “Palestinian state” be? How has Israel “terrori[zed] them while pretending to let them have a state”? Who started “terrorizing” whom, and when? AGAIN, how are Arab citizens of Israel treated today, IN Israel? How many buses, cafes, hotels, and so on have been bombed out of the blue in Israel since 1967? How many have been bombed BY Israel (remember, civilian targets, out of the blue) in the West Bank and Gaza? WHAT “acts of terror against arabs” are you talking about? Please be specific. How does Israel “exclude a big chunk of its population”? Are you then implying that Gaza and the West Bank are, in fact, part of “Greater Israel,” and the people that live there are really supposed to be citizens of it? What happened, AGAIN, to the Arab people who chose to stay in 1948 and 67 and become part of Israeli society? Have they been “excluded” and “terrorized”? And, on what basis do you say that Israel is NOT a democratic state? If you had to choose where to raise your children, would you choose Israel, or say Iran or Syria or Saudi Arabia, or a democratic, free Lebanon? And please explain your choice. HOW is “the ball for peace in the ME in Israel’s camp”? What specifically must Israel agree to do in order to achieve this peace? Aside from NOW, when has Israel ever refused to engage in serious dialogue with its enemies, or refused to make concessions to appease them? Wasn’t it M. Begin (or was it Rabin? sorry I always mix them up) who died in seclusion and depression because he tried so hard, carved up the land won in battle, yet STILL saw no peace for his people? And, who started those battles that Israel ended up winning (e.g. your own examples of Six-Day and Yom Kippur war. Please don’t forget 1948 either.)? By the way, there are plenty of miracles around those battles, well documented– it sure gives one pause to consider “WHO” is helping Israel, and whether one is really on the “right side.” Yep, now Israel is no longer “outgunned.” It’s not using even close to the capacity that it has right now to defend itself. Why is it taking so long to root out Hiz? I argue it’s because A)Hiz hides like women among its population. B)Israel really has no interest in sparking WWIII here by pulling out its full arsenal. C)Israel actually does care about civilian casualties, contrary to anti-Israel propaganda, and thus doesn’t want to completely DESTROY southern Lebanon, which it easily could. D)Israel intrinsically believes in the power of human morality and right thinking, and still holds on to the meagre possibility that this kind of power can still win. Perhaps Israel does dream someday to expand itself into the Biblical “Greater Israel.” However, I’ve seen no act in its modern history which indicates that it just wants to “grab” this land — in fact, it appears just the opposite, rather to be giving up territory won legitimately in defense of itself.
by the way, what did I say about “old school expansionism”? I didn’t quite understand your reference.
And with regard to “the hysteric quality of the propaganda which says Israel is in danger of being pushed into the sea” — I don’t recall saying that I felt Israel was in “danger” of this. In fact, I know in my heart quite the opposite. But you must have your head “you-know-where” if you don’t think that’s the intention of Israel’s enemies. Read the “Open Letter from Hizbollah.” Watch what Iran’s big Mahmoud says. Read the charter of the PLO. Play again what al-Zawahiri said day before yesterday (”from Pakistan to Spain” my friend). This list could continue. Are these people just making up stories to “terrorize” the world, or are they speaking what they really want– “the liberation of ALL ‘Muslim’ lands” — whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean.

Man, I wish people on your side of the fence would investigate the whole thing more objectively and look to sources other than Hiz and Hamas et al for the facts. I may be too deeply entrenched on my “side of the fence” to be truly objective anymore, but it has ALWAYS seemed to me that any moron (like maybe moron99? ;) should be able to see what the real problems are here, and when and where it started, if only this moron is willing to look at the facts and stop operating under this paradigm of percieved “loss of dignity.” They remind me of gang bangers in prison here in the U.S.– everything centers on “you gotta respect me” and “I killed him cuz he disrespected me” — they’re IN freakin’ PRISON for violent crimes and illegal activity for God’s sake!!! They have already lost their “dignity” and “respect”!!! Start acting “respectable” and then we can talk about giving some “respect” where it’s due.

I always intend to be brief, and then utterly fail. It’s just that there’s so much to say when you weigh the facts. And yes, I’m passionate, perhaps even hysterical about it. I think human destiny is at stake here.

God bless you… and I’m still praying for peace… and God’s will.

Oh yeah, and “nobody” …
your statement reminded me so much of what Golda Meir once said:
“When the Arabs love their chidren more that they hate us, then we will have peace.”

ummmhmmmm, yep.

“Israel spent most of its history outgunned and outnumbered by the arab armies.” — Nobody

You are recycling worn out propaganda which might impress an indoctrinated public in Israel or the US but to someone who has done a bit of reading this statement is complete nonsense.

In 1948 the Jews that has established in Palestine did fight Arab armies, that’s true. Tell me, did you think the Arabs would have welcomed you with tea and biscuits for seizing Palestinian property at gunpoint?

In 1956, Israel not only was it not outgunned, it was fighting with Britain and France on its side. I don’t think Lebanon would mind being “outgunned” at the moment if Britain and France were fighting on its side to resist the Israeli onslaught!

Hey Mustapha do you ever bother reading blog posters? just wondering

Anonymous said…

Oh yeah, and “nobody” …
your statement reminded me so much of what Golda Meir once said:
“When the Arabs love their chidren more that they hate us, then we will have peace.”

ummmhmmmm, yep.

——————

That would help.

But the thing is that even in terms of armed struggle they are doing something strange. Say, the jews in their place would nt mess with the EU and would try to move armed struggle completely to the west bank to avoid giving IDF any pretext for invading the strip so soon. The fact that they started shooting kassam rockets almost from the day one, shows that they eigher lack any well defined strategy or the most basic discipline to keep their factions at bay. Even if their idea is to drive israel out of the west bank by force ( which is illusion ) this should nt have prevented them from trying to first consolidate their territorial gains in gaza and stabilize their relationships with the EU. I think that hamas and hezbollah leadership just believe their own propaganda. Otherwise its impossible to understand what they are doing even in terms of armed struggle. The fact that nasrallah was thinking that a few thousand katyushas can deter israel from destroying lebanese infrastructure shows that he seriously underestimates the ability of israely civilian population to absorb losses or spent weeks seating in shelters under fire.

nobody,

it was politics right out of the “Mullacracy 101″ manual.

Chapter IV. Dealing with reformists

“When domestic support appears to be waning or the opposition is beginning to organize serious challenges to your authority then you need antagonize the US and/or Israel. When either of these infidel entities responds you quickly use your media, mosque, rumor, and conspiracy networks to define the scope of their response as an act against all Muslims. Carefully frame and market the conflict such that people are forced to choose between supporting Islam and supporting Islam’s enemies. Under no circumstance allow the conflict to be defined within the context of your own actions. Having previously established your brand recognition as either “defender of Islam” or “defender of Arabness” the people will have no choice but to support you. During this surge of support quietly dispense with those who threaten your power.”

Nasrallah’s committed two massive errors:
First, he failed to previously establish his religous brand recognition beyond the shia community.
Second, he miscalculated the response of his Arab neighbors. His affiliation with Iran negated their support and he was unable to frame it as “zionist agression against a defender of arab dignity”.

I doubt that Nasrallah will survive politically. He no longer has the brand appeal that arab dictators seek in their surrogates. No money + no weapons = no power.

Israel should trade Shabaa Farms for Hezbollah Disarming In Fact

Here’s my peace plan. What do you all think?

Israel agrees to give Shabaa Farms to Lebanon (or to Lebanon and Syria in such proportion as they mutually agree) as soon as Hezbollah has in fact actually disarmed — not merely for their agreeing to do so.

This has the advantage of making it considerably easier for the Lebanese government to exert political pressure on Hezbollah to disarm. It would make it easier to get Syria to help as well, since Syria will either get back land or be seen to be generous to it’s Arab neighbor Lebanon, and thereby assuage the grievances much of that population has against it.

Further Hezbollah won’t be rewarded for attacking Israel by this formula but rather by actually disarming. Though of course it can claim to it’s glory that it got back the territory for the rest of the country — which it will have, by disarming.

Further, a ceasefire is agreed between Lebanon and Israel whereby 12 hours after Hezbollah actually ceases all rocket and other bombardment and other cross border attacks on Israeli territory, that Israel will cease all attacks on Lebanon for the air or ground and begin withdrawing. Any resumption of attacks on Israel or after the 12 hour period Israeli forces in Lebanon will break the ceasefire.

Lebanon will agree to move it’s army to the border with Israel and begin disarming Hezbollah both on a timetable. It will also agree it will not allow any further arms shipments into it’s territory from Iran or Syria to rearm Hezbollah. It will get help in both from an international force which will help it and train it and better arm it, but it will retain responsibility.

Once all of this is accomplished there will be an actual peace treaty between Israel and Lebanon, or this agreement will turn into that.

Any substantial violation of the agreement voids the ceasefire, with the implied threat that Israel resumes the current campaign.

harry said…

“Israel spent most of its history outgunned and outnumbered by the arab armies.” — Nobody

You are recycling worn out propaganda which might impress an indoctrinated public in Israel or the US but to someone who has done a bit of reading this statement is complete nonsense.

In 1948 the Jews that has established in Palestine did fight Arab armies, that’s true. Tell me, did you think the Arabs would have welcomed you with tea and biscuits for seizing Palestinian property at gunpoint?

In 1956, Israel not only was it not outgunned, it was fighting with Britain and France on its side. I don’t think Lebanon would mind being “outgunned” at the moment if Britain and France were fighting on its side to resist the Israeli onslaught!

———————

You obviously did nt do that bit of reading. In fact u did nt mention 1956 war in your first post at all. You were using 1967 war as an example.

The shit about tea and busuits has nothing to do with the point at question , which is israel military superiority. You are just unable to develop your line of arguementation without losing the subject.

As to your pretensions to be one of the selected few free from imperialist enndoctrination we say here - some people ,if they dont flatter themselves , nobody will.

dougjnn said…

Here’s my peace plan. What do you all think?

————-

As far as i know it is exactly what the americans are trying to organize now. Shebaa farms should be a part of the package deal.

But Hezbollah would nt accept such a deal. Your idea is basicly to take lebanon completely out of israeli arab conflict and put it on the side of jordan/egypt. This is not nastallah’s idea of the future of lebanon.

Moron99—

I more or less agree with your capsule history of western civilization.

One important caveat. The Renaissance, beginning in Italy, preceded the Protestant Reformation. That is important to your basic narrative because it was the influence of outside secular ideas (secular art and natural philosophy and proto science) that first challenged the ideological orthodoxy of the Christian church in Western Europe. Those ideas were largely brought back by the Italian ships trading with Moslem and Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) lands (esp. Alexandria Egypt and Constantinople). Those ideas were the preserved wisdom of the earlier heyday of the Greco Roman world, with additions from the Muslim world and through them even India and China. It was after this discovery of a non Christian but still European civilization they were willing to admit was in some (or many) ways greater than their own (Ancient Greece and Rome) (always with moral reservations) and discovery of one they wouldn’t admit was but where they found impressive ideas and achievements (contemporary Islam), that orthodox Church ideas seemed challengeable around the edges, if not at the heart of theology. So new ideas and achievements in the arts and sciences developed in a heady atmosphere of taking some things from pile A and some from pile B and so on — invention.

The Protestant Reformation then took that a whole leap forward and challenged much of what the Roman Catholic Church regarded as it’s central and clearly exclusive ideological province – matters of theology. After wrenching wars throughout much of the sixteenth century most of Europe decided (to greater or lesser extents in different places) it was better to just live with ideological differences rather than try to enforce conformity. Toleration tended to be much greater in protestant lands with the partial exceptions of France and certain city states of Italy and hence the next phase in Western development, the Enlightenment tended to develop most there.

“It is only in the last 100 years that the body of “recently acquired knowledge” exceeded that of the Egyptians or Romans.”

Naaah. It clearly had by 1700, after Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, Galen and many others. Science and the scientific method were well established and accelerating. Hell by then the Industrial Revolution with it’s attendant explosion of engineering knowledge and human prosperity was on the verge of takeoff.

Nobody said
But Hezbollah would not accept such a deal. Your idea is basicly to take lebanon completely out of israeli arab conflict and put it on the side of jordan/egypt. This is not nastallah’s idea of the future of lebanon.

Well if Hezbollah won’t agree to disarm how can the Euros and Lebanese expect Israel to stop trying to disarm them by force?

Nobody said: USA did nt support israel until into 70s

Sure. Before that the anti-semitic French supported Israel.

Moron, you think its possible to be a free non-Jew in a jewish state? I suppose if you dissasociate freedom from enjoying full democratic rights, then maybe you’re right.

Yeshua-freak, ok, you win: I can’t be bothered responding to your emotional fallacies. If you don’t get my line of reasoning, I give up. Well done.

Jez said…

Nobody said: USA did nt support israel until into 70s

Sure. Before that the anti-semitic French supported Israel.

Moron, you think its possible to be a free non-Jew in a jewish state? I suppose if you dissasociate freedom from enjoying full democratic rights, then maybe you’re right.

Yeshua-freak, ok, you win: I can’t be bothered responding to your emotional fallacies. If you don’t get my line of reasoning, I give up. Well done.

July 29, 2006 4:46 PM

—-

You are just a regular moron,jez. My best friend is arab from east jerusalem. Whenever he comes to party in tel aviv-after parties he stays in my house. And he can t suffer the muslim clan culture. But I bet you are just too dumb to understand it. I give up. Well done.

nobody,

Frankly, I would say that an Arab Muslim living in israel has more freedom than an arab muslim living in almost any other mideast nation. This would be especially true for females and saudi’s. I would also note that in most Arab countries you have to worry whether you are shia or sunni. In Israel you are free to be anything you choose.

Based on a google search -
20% of Israel is non-jew. They enjoy full legal status, full voting rights, and full access to government jobs and benefits. It is prohibited for the government to discriminate based on religion or ethnicity. Equality is a constitutional right that the Israeli supreme court has repeatedly upheld. Roughly 7% of the elected officials in isareali government are arab muslim.

Maybe reality on the ground is different. But on the surface it appears that an Arab living in Israel earns 10x more money, enjoys complete freedom of religion, has no fear of persecution, and has an active voice in government. Perhaps you could take a moment to educate and inform us.

Lets put it this way - we ve got problems here. But who does nt have problems with their muslim minorities? But if a young muslim got enough of this traditional shit, or is a sexual minority, or its a girl fleeing her relatives to escape honor killings … there is only one place they can run to , and this is the jewish sector.

Moron99,

Israel is a Jewish state. It’s flag is the star of David. Children of Jewish mothers have priority in getting Israeli citizenship. Even the most extremist of Israelis now know it is necessary to give the Palestinians a state lest Israel becomes more Arabic than Jewish. I’m sure you know that, it’s an ongoing debate in Israel.

Nobody, your answer was irrelevant to my previous post. If you like I can be just as irrelevant. One of my best friends is a British Jew (I myself am of Jewish origin and would not be here had my grandmother not fled Austria). This friend has a strong distaste for Israeli arrogance.

jez,

hmmm ….

if I was a 60 years ago I would have encouraged my people to be peaceful and work to build trust with the jews. It would have taken a full generation because these people had just sufferred the european holocast. Blame the germans all of Europe would say. But it was only England that did not approve by silnce as the trains drove by. These were traumatized people who would trust no-one. As a palestinian in 1947 I would have encouraged my people to make peace and build trust with the children. The parents were lost. They would never again trust anyone. But the children had not yet learned to hate. Earn their trust and you can live with them as equals. Those children would have been adults 30-40 years ago and the fighting would be a distant memory.

but it is not 60 years ago. It is today. Oddly enough, little has changed. The reason Israel lets jews in freely and arabs slowly is simply because they do not trust the arabs. Can you blame them? So …. IF I were a palestinian, I would again be fighting for peace. Let us be a territory. When the children are adults then trust will exceed hatred and our economies will be too intertwined to seperate. Little by little, piece by piece, we will earn our equality and make ourselves indespensible to the Israeli economy. Bit by bit … until we have the full rights of any Israeli citizen. I would follow the Puerto Rican model.

No, I would not fight to establish a third-world country. I would rather buy my way into an existing first-world one. Perhaps it is an unrealistic stereotype but I believe that these Jews always follow the money. They would sell their mother if the price was high enough and they would be caught in an unsolvable dillemma if I offered them free pork. I would use that to my advantage.

Jez said…

Moron99,

Israel is a Jewish state. It’s flag is the star of David. Children of Jewish mothers have priority in getting Israeli citizenship. Even the most extremist of Israelis now know it is necessary to give the Palestinians a state lest Israel becomes more Arabic than Jewish. I’m sure you know that, it’s an ongoing debate in Israel.

——————————

This means absolutely nothing. People of german dissent from other countries are granted german citizenship without problem. When i was in barcelona i learned from one of my argentian friends that italy has the same policy. The guy applied for italian citizenship even though they came to argentina generations ago.

Two of the baltic states shortly after freeing themselves from the soviet rule have implemented rules that made russian immigrants many of the second generation to reapply for citizenship with many failing language exams or not applying at all. This did nt prevent them from becoming EU members because fixing its immigration rules to maintain its national character is a free choice of any state.

The fact that Israel immigration rules favor jews does nt make israel a special state. And of course the understanding under olso was that the palestinian authority would eventually have its own immigration policy across the territory that was supposed to eventually pass under its control.

The israeli immigration rules are modeled ,by the way , after nazi definition of being jewish. Which means anyone, if one of his grandparents is jewish

Arent those Heil Hitler salutes?

Ok lets do this…

OK, I love my neighbor as I love myself… OK Grow some balls, reform your country, gather your military ,enlist to the lebanese army, christs’ sakes kick hezbollah ass the hell out of your country ” NOTE: YOUR Country not freggin Hezbollahs “

All the Arabs countries yap yap yap “Death to America!!” We are the first ones to send a few hundred million dollars to an arab states before we feed our own freggin people…
Every time I turn on the TV is some freggin ARAB walkin on or marching across an American Flag thats painted on the ground…
What The F**K ,whats the first sentence you learn AMERICA is EVIL?
we arn’t all bad as well as not all of you.. yes the United States does things thats they have no business doing.. WTF sounds like Hezbollah is a reborn “HITLER”
kill the JEWS off with there heads?
So people of lebanon do you plan on firing up the furnaces and throw the jews into the fire again.. Hmmm seams to me Hezbollah kidnapped some of Israels people, seems like Hezzbollah fired and killed many innocent people of Israel.. Both Sides are Wrong, The United States has Been Wrong… Grow some balls kick out hezbollah out , let the peace keepin army in… Put up a freggin NEW Berlin wall between Lebanon and Israel… and let there be peace on earth..

Do you want that Lebanon and the rest of the Arab Countries become a modern countries and deserve the respect op the nations of the world? It is very easy,eliminate those terrorists of Hezbollah,
Hamas,Al-Qaida and the Iranian regime and I can assure you that not only Lebanon but the whole entire region will be safe and will live in prosperity like the rest of the modern world.