Kinder is Danish????

Welcome back Mus!

I think that this whole affair is surreal and has been overblown on purpose.

The cartoons are clearly disrespectful, but that’s free speech whether you like it or not. People have the right to be disrespectful. I think that the Danish PM did take the right decision by showing to the Arab ambassadors the way out. Managing the press is not his job.

The real reason behind this affair is the attempts of some governments to build-up their Islamic credentials. Asking for the Danish PM to apologize for something that was published in the press is 100% demagogic.

The fact that HA just joined the club of idiots demanding an excuse for these cartoons is further evidence showing that those who are using this affair are only trying to create anti-western resentment. They want the people to stop focusing on more urgent matters.

The Danish newspapers wanted to show that journalists were pressured when it came to subjects related to Islam. I think that they made their point.

Mustapha,
I am so glad that you have posted on this issue that has strangely been totally neglected by the Lebanese blogsphere community. I have made references to this in a few earlier posts.
More to the point, I am of the opinion that NO one needs to apologize to the Moslem governments that are protesting. Actually I look at this issue as a reflection of a closed society that refuses to accept the rights of others to express their opinions. The protestations of the Arab regimes is the clearest indicator that freedom and democracy are not held in high regard in our region of the world. I do not have to agree with the Danish artist in order to protect his right to voice his opinion.

Contrast this brhhaha with what is going on in Italy, the seat of the Catholic Church. An aetheist has decided to challenge the right of the church to teach that the historical Jesus existed and the courts have taken his charges seriously. He will have his day in court without the fear of a fatwa asking for his assassination. We , in the Arab world, are not ready for democracy yet, otherwise the citizens would be demonstrating against the actions of their governments in this case. But I guess governments are after all a reflection of their citizens.

Kinder is Danish????

Kinder is by Ferrero, the maker of Nutella.. It’s italian
http://www.ferrero.it/

Thanks, chief. I thought I was in another word for a bit there! I’ve had Kinder ever since I was 2 years old and I always thought it was Italian not Danish (in fact, second guess would be German if one didn’t know, but definitely not Danish!).

Welcome back Steve.

This is very good news IF carried to its ultimate conclusion.

I’m sure there are offensive cartoons in the US, EU, India etc..

Boycott everybody and no more cars, planes, PCs, cell phones and advanced WEAPONS (well maybe some Russian stuff, and knives from Niger). ;)

> Kinder is by Ferrero, the maker of Nutella.. It’s italian

*phew* :)

Welcome back abou stef.

I wonder what would happen if they add the Prophet’s character next to Jesus’ character in South Park.

You said:

The question is legitimate, but beside the point. Westerners will sooner or later accept the notion that many Muslims have a weird sense of prioritization. If they starve because of bad government policy or corruption, they attribute it to “God’s will”. But if some “heathen” westerner insults their beliefs, they will be seriously offended.

Well, to be honest i’m not on either of the sides but one thing I believe is that culture-values & culture-believes are meant to be respected and I don’t quite agree with you on the fact that westerners would feel weired about how Muslims priorotize stuff, well, don’t we Muslims feel weired about some priorities in their cultures?

Welcome back Mr. Mousse: we kind of missed you here…and thought that, just like Conan the Cymmerian, you had been captured by beautiful Belit, ancient Phoenician pirate-queen of the black coast!

Re: the rotten thing in the kingdom of Denmark, I also believe this caricature of a travesty of “blasphemy” has been blown completely out of proportion by the Saudis and their subservient media “Imam corner”.

I mean these guys are willing to threaten to cut diplomatic ties with Copenhagen over a single silly caricature, but they never dared summoning the American ambassador to Riyadh while Fallujah and Jenin were razed to the ground: talk about Major-League Pharisees!

Which brings me to my next point: Ironically, Saudi preachers, Hamas types and other Wahhâbi-style Arab fundamentalists are preaching for a born-again Hebrew worldview…In many ways, today’s Islamic fundamentalists are much more “Jewish” or Bible-based than your average secular Israeli citizen.

If it existed today the Grand Sanhedrim would probably side with the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution: same beards, same turbans, same misogynic mania, same neurotic obsession with “God’s Law” and other Pentateuch-based fanatical follies…

It’s no coincidence Sicari-in-Chief Simon Bin Giora was born in Jordan, just like Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi!

Dr Victor de la Vega
Thomas More Center for Middle-East Studies
http://www.mideastmemo.blogspot.com/

Thanks for posting on this topic. The Danish newspaper which published the original cartoons has been forced to apologize. The Brussels Journal blog which has led the reporting of this attack on free speech is now receiving threats. Given the state of free speech in Europe as evidenced by the Italian “prove Christ existed” case, I expect Brussels Journal to be forced to remove the cartoons and their reporting. To guard against that possibility, I have reposted the cartoons and the Brussels Journal reporting thread on my blog. I urge all bloggers who care about free speech to do the same. See Farenheit 451 Alert

I am strongly support freedom of specch till it is against a religious figure! I don’t see any benefit from criticizing Moes, Jesus or Muhammed! Here, it is not freedom of speech, it is hatred! You can criticize or make fun of anyone alive now, who cares!

Another issue, if anyone will even deny the Holocaust, the whole media will scream anti-semitism!

Let’s not have double standard her!

Thanks for the entry Mustapha. What a way to come back!

I’m looking forward to more entries from you!

I am in favour of absolute unrestrained free speech - no special cases.

It is true, what a way to come back! I had a hunch though that you will not let this topic pass by without commenting.

To begin with I think that Muslims have the right to express their anger cause what has happened is very wrong.

Mustapha, you should interpret actions by their intentions and clearly the intentions of the newspaper were not innocent at all. Caricaturizing the Prophet(PBUH) as a terrorist,at these times,come on give me a break…
I am suffering from such stereotypes here and i’m trying to do everything in my capacity to give a different image about Islam and such actions deter these efforts and just widen the gap and incite hatred.

Mustapha, there is a growing feeling of hatred towards muslims in europe which scares the sh*t out of me. And goverments just can’t allow this to go on. These caricatures are not the first incident.Few months ago, a well known Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci wrote an article which dangerously incites hatred and asks for the expulsion of the whole of muslims out of Europe because “there is no such thing as moderate muslims.All muslims are terrorists”. Her words are clearly portrayed in those Danish caricatures.Sadly, these articles have many supporters,supporters whom I personaly know and am in constant contact with,and who had the audacity to tell me that Fallaci’s statements are true to my face.

This kind of speech is very similar to that in Europe,particularly in Germany, prior to the Holocaust. Laws should be made to forbid hate speech. England is seriously pressing for such law to be passed in the House of Commons.They are sincere in their efforts and they care for the sensitivities of the minorities. Here is where the Danish PM and his government are to blame. He can only be blamed for not pressing for laws that forbid inciting hatred. Inciting hatred doesn’t seem to bother him at all. But to ask him to apologize for what a newspapr published(and lawful in Denmark as well)is wrong.

Whereas i believe in freedom of speech,I believe that freedom should be responsible.Moreover,as they say here in England,your freedom ends where my nose begins. In my flat,I am not free to listen to The White Stripes at a loud volume after 2 A.M.

If this kind of hate speech continues in Europe unchecked, Muslims might get there Auswitz sometimes during this century.

Umm, tell you what. I have a deal for all of you offended by the cartoons. You get your newspapers (and not just one or two from some obscure little country) to stop printing cartoons of demonic hook-nosed Jews with blood dripping from their fangs - which really are Nazi-esque - and we’ll make the Danes stop publishing stupid drawings of Mohammad.

Alternately, you can all take solace from the fact that in Europe (unlike in the Holy American Republic), NO religion, first and foremost Christianity, is free from ‘attack’ - be that in the form of ‘offensive’ cartoons, books and films that question or mock the tenements of faith or even t-shirts that deny the existence of god. If our own religion doesn’t escape criticism, how can you expect your to?

Hey guys, thanks for the warm welcome!

The topic is indeed very interesting and deserves much more discussion. I encourage all of you who have thoughts on it to express yourself freely.

Recent news

Arabs more upset over cartoons than say Darfur

Anti-West Hamas wants to fight everyone, but still wants US and EU money

Sane Arabs don’t understand this shit. How can westerners?

AbdulKarim, some talk in the west is exaggerated. But really the Arabs, by their talk and actions, are not helping themselves to say the least.

PS. “Imam corner” your first good joke this centuty, Vic.

if we react it’s doing us no good cause now the whole world knows n if we dont we are considered egnorants n weak…but i prefare to react against it cause that will show to some what dose the prophet is to us n some will be more interested to know about him more so u can say there is something good out of it…like any ather tragic thing happened under the name of islam…after all the only Q i have that i would like to be answered more than apologized to is WHY they did that to the prophet?

Possibly because they felt like it?

Remember that Mohammad is your prophet, not everyone’s prophet and just because Muslims consider their prophet above criticism/mockery doesn’t mean that non-Muslims should too.

It may be an offence, under Islamic law, to insult or mock aspects of Islam. However, Denmark does not follow Islamic law. More to the point, heresy, whether Christain, Jewish, Muslim or Martian is no longer a punishable offence in Europe.

As Islam takes its place on the world stage, Muslims will have to accept that not everyone may like their religion and not everyone will be polite about it but, barring the creation of a global Caliphate or the return of the Church as supreme political arbiter in Europe (swiftly followed by a ban on heresy, secularism, personal freedom and freedom of speech and thought - rather like the bans imposed by your own religious authorities) there isn’t a lot that can be done to prevent the irreligious from expressing themselves.

The cartoons were certainly in poor taste and understandably aroused anger but frankly I think people in Europe would be more inclined to consider Muslims ‘ignorant’ not for not reacting to the cartoons, as Manal Yousef would have it, but for over-reacting to them in the way that they are now doing.

After centuries of fighting the Church, and all its many excesses, I sincerely hope modern Europe will not be bullied again into accepting self-censorship in the name of defending religion.

Well said anonymous 2:48… i agree with you 100%.

Could not have said it better anon 2:48! Very well-articulated argument!

We, mulims, need to be more tolerant. We are a little too sensitive.

Hi Mustapha, good to see you back.
Voltaire said:
“I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.”

anon 2:48 got it right.

I guess it all comes down to what Robert E. Howard said when he created the character of Conan the Barbarian:
“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing”.

To most “civilized” secularist Westerners, Shariaa Law is barbaric and repulsive in itself…

By choosing to mock Muhammad Ibn Abdullah, Western critics time and again have shown their utter ignorance of what Islam really stands for: the Koran is not man-centric like the Christian/Greek Gospels, but highly God-centric just like the Hebrew Torah from which its draws most of its social and cultural norms.

The Christian-like word “Mohammedan” was coined in the 7th century by Europeans who were desperately trying to grasp Islam by forcing it within existing Western man-centric theological categories…

Ironically, many of the later converts to Islam (Iranians/Shiites, Hanafi Sunnis such as the Ottomans and the Mughals …) took for themselves the name “Mohammedan” and even started celebrating Christian-inspired feasts such as “Milad-un-Nabi” (the birth of the Prophet) and adopted other European and Indo-Persian cultural traits that had little to do with the Koran’s ultra-monotheistic worldview.

It’s sad to see the same kind of ignorance still persists to that day on both side of the cultural/religious divide: that hapless Danish cartoonist is as backward as his Saudi censors and probably views them as fanatical fools, whereas they’re utterly convinced that a second-tier Scandi newspaper must be part of some Occidental Masonic conspiracy designed to destroy Allah and his beloved bearded vicar…

Montesquieu was damn right: common sense is in short supply on both sides of the fence.

Josey, I agree with you and that was not my point. I’m just trying to say that what has happened was fueled by hate and I’m paranoid about that and I have the right to feel so. The “some talks in the west which are exaggerated” might turn consdierable.I was frightened when one of my best friends, an Italian, told me that Fallaci is 100% right!

As for the Arabs reaction,we shouldn’t compare Arabs and Muslims to Europeans’ for a very simple reason. Europe now is in its post Christian era. It has undergone the age of enlightment and all that stuff..On the contrary, the Middle East is in a stage that is currently called “Islamic Awakening”. I don’t expect them to take criticism on prophets the same way Europeans would do.

The better reaction the governments and the people could have done was to seriously start a campaign to change the image of Islam in the West. No efforts have been done in that respect despite the damage that has been done to that image since 9/11.

The cartoons are disrespectful but so what? That’s freedom of expression. And the last thing Islam needs right now, is the imposition of a de facto censorphip that will freeze any debate.

The whole crisis is about governments wanting to build up their Islamic credentials and islamists wanting to prevent a debate on religions. Let us not fall into that trap.

Islamic subjects are the last things that must be censored these days.

Some people here are saying that freedom of expression has limitations, such as libel. Well those people clearly don’t know what libel is. Libel is only applicable to cases where a media deliberately spread lies and present them as facts to harm a person or an organization. Libel never applies to cartoons, carictures and satires because in these cases the viewer is clearly aware that those representations are not facts and do not represent the truth, but are meant to make people laugh.

To those who thinks that religions should be respected I say that it’s only YOUR point of view. Religion is no better than science. Religion is no better than atheism. Religion is not more respectable than pornography. And if you think otherwise, well be aware that your beliefs are only yours, and not better than those of the rest of humanity.

Abdulkarim,

See your point, but I think that muslims need to do a lot of the work for the deterioration not to happen.

Also, what’s going on, pre and post 9/11 is IMHO beyond an image problem (I think it’s a cultural problem).

But if you insist on calling it an image problem, you got to ask why is the “image” defined by Bin Laden-Hamas-arab rioters in Paris-and Lebanese hooligans in Australia??

Where are the PROMINENT, VIGOROUS and VISIBLE countervoices?

I would like to add that pornography, unlike religion has never killed anybody. Except maybe some old men who misread the Viagra disclaimer.

So what is morally superior?

Funny how we never consider when a slight insinuation of insulting jewish or christian religous figures there is a huge backlash. I recall reading that the EU was forcing France to apologise over a journalist who disagreed with what the pope had said.. (something along those lines so dont refer me). Simultaneously, if someone were to draw a a priest taking it up the ass (in reference to widespread paedophilia and sexual misconduct within the catholic church) I wonder what everyones response would be…freedom of speech still?

Dude,

What you say about the Catholic Church and the French republic clearly shows you haven’t got a clue.

In France, since 1792, it has been perfectly legal to insult the pope and the Vatican even in particularly scatological ways: from 1871 until 1940 “militant anti-Catholicism” has been largely encouraged by the French government itself and the Paris press was full of the most offensive anti-Christian caricatures you can imagine.

On the other hand, during that period called “the third republic”, there was some kind of ultra-democratic playing field for all mudslingers as rightwing newspapers were also full of anti-Semitic caricatures.

This absolute freedom of speech was progressively reduced after 1945, and in the early 1980s some very strict laws were adopted supposedly to “fight racist and anti-Semitic hate speech”: these absurd edicts mean that it is still legal for French cartoonists to mock priests, pastors, imams, and Buddhist prelates…but they can now go to jail for mocking rabbis!

As for Islam, the West and pornography, well your remarks are equally wrong.
For most of its history, the Arab-Islamic culture was MUCH more sensual than the West: libertine books such as “The 1001 Nights” were burned in Paris and London- ironically, they’re now available throughout Europe and banned in Cairo, Teheran and Riyadh!

Equally ironic is the fact that, throughout the Middle-Ages and until the 18th century, many libertine European aristocrats and free-thinking philosophers were actually attracted by Islam because they viewed it as a more rationalist and modern faith than Christianity: after the defeat of Napoleon’s republican Empire and the return to power of the rightwing Catholic kings of France, several of Napoleon’s revolutionary generals choose to move to Cairo and some even converted to Sunni Islam.

But this was then…the times have changed and two hundred years of Wahhabi activism boosted by Saudi Arabia’s immense oil revenues, compounded by the West’s brutal colonial practices in the Middle-East and North Africa, and America’s systematic backing of Israel’s war crimes have succeeding in tilting the Mohammedan collective psyche towards a very reactionary interpretation of Islam, which in many ways is simply a natural defense reflex albeit an obscurantist and backward one…

Isaac Newton’s Third Law of Motion states: “To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts. Whatever draws or presses another is as much drawn or pressed by that other”.

Prescient words indeed.

Vic, these damns law should be abrogated.

“Where are the PROMINENT, VIGOROUS and VISIBLE countervoices?”

Right on!!! They are offended and want an apology? Would just love to hear a throng of Muslim clerics come forth and denounce the mutilation of thousands in the name of Islam. Yet, they are demanding apologies for some tasteless renderings. In the name of God, I wish they would have vehemently reacted to 9.11 this way. Instead, we got the tight lip service.

zobahhan

…freedom of speech still?

YES, no one was fined or went to jail fot making fun of Jesus, priests or jews. No law was changed.

Brigitte Bardot was fined in France for criticizing Moslems, Orianna Fallaci is in court in Italy, and Salman Rushdie had a fatwa calling for his killing

What the hell are you talking about?

Who is asking for fines or jail time?

Vega you are talking hundreds of years ago. You yourself claim times have changed…can we still draw a priest taking it up the ass?

Im not defending the moslem stance just saying at certain times one should be cautious of their actions regardless of the “laws” in place. There are times for these “sattirical” representations and quite frankly i dont believe the time is now.

No Zobhan, Vic is not talking about hundreds of years ago, he is talking about the fact that criticising religion, specifically Christianity, has been possible in most of (Western) Europe for hundreds of years.

Want to see cartoons of priests ‘taking it up the ass’ (what a curious fixation you have with this particular image), go and do a web search. Want to see the Pope burned in effigy every year? Go and check out some of the more ‘traditional’ Guy Fawkes day event in England. Want to read satirical screeds about priests, popes, saints and the hypocrisy of religion, well you have hundreds of years of novels, short stories and pamphlets to chose from.

If the Church is no longer central to European humour, this is largely because it has become almost irrelevant to daily life in many parts of the Union.

Even so, the Catholic Church has thousands of reasons to feel offended or under attack every year, and yet is able to do relatively little about it.

The fact that the press is even able to discuss issues such as paedophilia amongst priests, corruption in the Vatican or lambast the Church position on homosexuality, condoms or divorce is proof that the Church is not immune to criticism.

And don’t forget that one of the biggest-selling novels of the last few years, Brown’s Da Vinci code effectively makes a mockery of the core Christian belief of the Godhood of Jesus and the centrality of his death on the cross by claiming that Jesus in fact had children, whose descendants are still amongst us today, an ancient ‘heresy’ whose proponents were once viciously torturted, persecuted and killed, all in the name of defending the Faith.

The problem with us Arabs, is that we are used to totalitarian regimes. Therefore, we demand the Danish governmet take action against these cartoons. What we don’t realize is that they CAN’T take action, because what was done was done by a private newspaper excercising freedom of speehch.

I am Muslim, and honestly, we are being really silly. Now, the whole world is going to see the cartoons, instead of a few thousand Danes. What are people to think of us now when they see Palestinians threatening to kidnap journalists (they kidnapped one already for a few hours)and them storming the EU building in Gaza?

Don’t you think they sort of reinforce the ideas in those cartoons?

In my opinion, instead of making such a rucuss, which is useless, we should instead try our best to change peoples’ perceptions of us.

Well said:

The editor of a Jordanian newspaper that suggested Muslim anger was unreasonable, was sacked by his publisher. Al-Shihan had run the cartoons, arguing: “What brings more prejudice against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage taker slashing the throat of his victim.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2022442,00.htm

Well said anon 5:24.

Plus; there are people purposely fanning the flames.

If you are a destitute refugee in Ain-el-Helweh, what the hell do u care what is published in Copenhagen? How do you even know what’s happening over there? Is that your top concern?

Or perhaps you are much better off than we’re told you are.

and you claim you are male…hahaha

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